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Thread: To Block or not to block, That is the question !

  1. #1
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    Default To Block or not to block, That is the question !

    Hi guys !

    Recently I witness a sparring session with two experience martial artist. To make this story short. A hard vicious round house kick was thrown and the blocker attempted to block the kick and instantly breaking his forearm.

    Experienced has taught me that when facing a strong kicker, I rather not block, instead I used evasive defense. However, in situations where I cannot get out of the kick fast enough I would instinctively block and would suffer for it and sometimes almost breaking my arm.

    One of the disadvantage I have in avoiding or evading round house kicks is that, countering the attack is impossible due to distance even at an angle. Most of these guys I spar with do not lunge after the kick, rather they would kick and retract back in front fighting position.

    Anyone have suggestion and experiences as to how to train against strong muay thai type kickers ?

    Thanks !
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

  2. #2
    Gene Williams Guest

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    Yes, move inside their kicking range and stay there. If people are breaking their arms blocking, they are doing it incorrectly. It is almost always better to use tai sabaki rather than a direct block, however, a direct block can really hurt the attacker if done right. Gene

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    Default hi Gene !

    Hi Gene ! ( rhymes with Hygiene )

    Yes, I am a strong believer of using the Tai Sabaki concept. But my timing has a lot of work to do. About three years ago we had a Japanese visitor who trained in Enshin Karate. He was good for I was kicking more airtime than Michael Jordan , even at a brown belt level his timing and movement were flawless.

    On one occasion, I was facing a 16 year who has trained with us since I believed he was 7, he chambered his right leg as if he was about to fire a round house kick, I move in an angle to my right, instead he quickly switch and threw a spinning hooking heel kick and nailed me in my right ear, dead on target !

    I felt No pain Just complete peace and serenity

    Yes, correct block can hurt the attacker...
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

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    Default To receive

    It is interesting to note that Uke refers to receiving rather than blocking. You receive the technique in a way that sets the opponent up for defeat. This definitely requires sabaki.

    Watching a good Kendo match is what really hit this home to me. The experienced swordsman just flows with the attack,redirecting it subtley with his shinai and then counters with his footwork (incidentally eviscerating his opponent of course).

    I remember a match I was having in TKD some years back (WTF Olympic style) and my friend did a very unexpected and nasty lead round kick to my head from a position that, quite honestly, I didn't think was possible. I did a simple fade left and a high deflection by just brushing my palm by my ear. He flew off his feet and landed right on his butt. It was the footwork that did it. I pushed his leg up higher than he expected and then blew his balance by shifting my weight a little. It was soft and effortless, also quite lucky in some ways.

    This is what I keep in mind when I think of blocking. I just wish I had the presence of mind to have scored on him while he was in mid air, but I was so shocked by the outcome, I sort of just stood there. I am meaner now...
    Glenn R. Manry

    ---Iaijutsu, don't forget the doorman.

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    Default block or not

    Yes, move inside their kicking range and stay there. If people are breaking their arms blocking, they are doing it incorrectly. It is almost always better to use tai sabaki rather than a direct block, however, a direct block can really hurt the attacker if done right. Gene
    Especially the incorrect part. For example, an outside type of block headed into the kick is very incorrect and can definitley get you hurt. Like I've said, what's on your waist ain't always what you are.
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  6. #6
    Bustillo, A. Guest

    Default Ramanujan

    Originally posted by gmanry
    ... my friend did a very unexpected and nasty lead round kick to my head from a position that, quite honestly, I didn't think was possible.

    ... I just wish I had the presence of mind to have scored on him while he was in mid air, but I was so shocked by the outcome, I sort of just stood there. I am meaner now...

    Good point. However, what you mention contradicts one of your previous suggestions about the results of certain formulas and trying to solve fighting scenarios on a computer. We can't measure certain things.

    i.e.
    The surprise. The unexpected. Presense of mind--emotional content; meanness, determination. (And what about all that ki talk. How do you gauge that one)


    Therefore...
    Trying to solve fighting scenario in 'Excel' = Outrageous (cubed)
    Analysis through experience = Priceless.
    Last edited by Bustillo, A.; 10th May 2003 at 02:50.

  7. #7
    Gene Williams Guest

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    You said it Antonio, determination and just downright meanness are important, but the meanness has to be controlled meanness, you can't just go wild. I also think Glenn is talking from a point sparring viewpoint which, I'm sorry, I see as a waste of time. I guess you could argue that it sharpens your reflexes or something. Also, there are no roundhouse kicks in traditional Okinawan kata that I am familiar with. I think front kick is far more powerful and direct, more accurate, and easier to use. Roundhouse kicks lose power to centrifugal force, they give the kicker a false feeling of safety because he feels like he is avoiding coming straight in (always a better strategy..get there first and fast), and most people use the top of the foot which is worthless. Against a grappler, nothing will get you thrown on your ass quicker than a roundhouse kick. Gene

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    Default My of my favorite kicks.

    I think my round kick may hit harder than my front kick but I'm not postive. I'm not that scientific. My kick is a little weird though. It is mostly a roundkick I guess. I throw it straight to the target usually thighs or floating rib area. Sort of half round kick half front kick. Probably my best kick. Its not the way my teacher taught roundhouse kick. I never cared for exposing my testicles that much plus I think my kick hits harder.

    Always kick with ball of the foot, toes or shins never top of foot.

    Besides there is no round kick in Goju proper so I felt it was OK to do it any damn way I pleased.
    Ed Boyd

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    Default Round House Kick !

    for the reason Gene has stated. I rarely use roundhouse kick. Since I fight from a side stance 90% of the time. I would only employ three kicks A side kick, Hook Kick and spinning side kick.
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

  10. #10
    Gene Williams Guest

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    Again, I think you are wasting a lot of energy with hook kicks and spinning kicks. I do not believe they are effective in combat situations and, even if your's is effective, I do not believe it is wise to rely on such techniques in the street. Many say, "Well, I wouldn't use it in the street." First, you fight the way you train and, second, then why bother with it at all. Your time would be much better spent developing a devastating reverse punch, lunge punch, and front kick and working on footwork and strategies to deliver them quickly and powerfully from both a defensive and offensive position. In the street, you don't get to bounce around and hang at your chosen kicking distance and whip out hook kicks and spinning kicks. Gene

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    Default Gene !

    I understand completely and you're right. However It would be hard for me to say what would work in the street for me for I have never been in that kind of situation. However, I can truly say that there will be none of these fancy kicks. I have fairly good hand techniques.

    But in real life situation, man ! I hope I don't crap my pant before I could execute a good and powerful front thrust kick.
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

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    Default Not point

    Antonio,

    I think you need to go back and actually read my posts, but then I have noticed that reading other people's posts from start to finish has not always been your strong point (just giving you sh*T, don't sweat it).

    I stated very clearly that it is an analytical tool to plan one's training. I don't fight like that, nobody can. When you fight, you fight your training, simple. Your training had better be systematic in some way, and the facts are that science enhances training, don't get so hung up on it. Do what makes you happy.

    Gene,

    No, full contact, limited rules though, no hands to the face (big limitation). I saw someone die in 1984 in a WTF tournament (back kick to the head). At the '93 nationals a guy got his spleen ruptured through the chest protector, watched him go out on a stretcher. This was in 1994 and I was helping a friend train for a state championship in WA. At the time we were both training in a Kyokushin offshoot style, MMA was just starting to come into vogue at that time. Our dojo worked a lot of Judo throws and takedowns, karate finishing work, but not much ground work.

    Ed,

    Exactly, and you developed it through feeling it out through your body, analyzing the weaknesses, and what felt right to you based on your experience. In the end you have "your kick," but when you throw it it tends to be along the same lines as that ideal on the bag or mitts.

    I won't bother describing mine anymore, it isn't like the latest MMA tape, so it must not be good. Oh and I didn't develop it by just "doing it" in the ring day after day.

    (Yes I know that is not what most of you are suggesting, but that is what you can get when you read into things, or don't read...).
    Glenn R. Manry

    ---Iaijutsu, don't forget the doorman.

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    Default Round Kicks

    Round kicks are all about the angle of entry. Too many fighters stand in front of their opponent and throw it. You wouldn't do it with a hook, but so many people do it with round house.

    Back to blocking-

    Despite my thought experiment (in another thread) and the numerous incorrect conclusions people can make about it...

    Your footwork is what protects you, the "blcok" is there to primarily make contact with the opponent, redirect them, etc. Of course, yes, in combat, you can make a mistake and get caught off guard, then you had better block! In drill, you should be working to minimize that as much as possible.

    Even in "classical" karate their are very few true blocks, just redirections and avoidance, but at the same time, practitioners condition just in case. This has been discussed before.

    If you can draw your opponent to attack the way you want him to, then you can use your "blocks" to punish them on the way in to another blow.

    In TKD I used to block alot, because that is what we were shown (basically misunderstood karate). Then the Olympic influence taught us to avoid more with footwork, always better if you can. Lots of footwork changes and fakes.

    Kyokushin from Japan has a lot of sabaki work and that was another good step. Movement is key to defense, but you will only be able to move so much before you have to get busy (what my example in the other thread showed).
    Glenn R. Manry

    ---Iaijutsu, don't forget the doorman.

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    Default

    First, you fight the way you train
    I'm glad this isn't true, in fact.

    99% of my training for years has been hard style kick and punch, 1% has been arm bars etc. I have also been attacked by violent teenage clients dozens of times.

    If I'd of hit or kicked them, I'd have been charged with a crime let alone fired on the spot.

    I don't fight like I train, and I have to be clear when I train others that I am not turning them into a destructive automaton, just giving them tools to allow them choice.

    Trianing, sparring and fighting are all different and not just parts of the same whole, and they are not equal.
    "Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

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    Default Where is it?

    Your footwork is what protects you, the "blcok" is there to primarily make contact with the opponent, redirect them, etc. Of course, yes, in combat, you can make a mistake and get caught off guard, then you had better block! In drill, you should be working to minimize that as much as possible.
    Let's talk about that. In just about all kata I've seen, true footwork is not addressed. You may say that the bunkai is this or that but while you're doing kata, you are not practising true realistic footwork.
    I think my round kick may hit harder than my front kick but I'm not postive. I'm not that scientific. My kick is a little weird though. It is mostly a roundkick I guess. I throw it straight to the target usually thighs or floating rib area. Sort of half round kick half front kick. Probably my best kick. Its not the way my teacher taught roundhouse kick. I never cared for exposing my testicles that much plus I think my kick hits harder.
    That's very true. I like the round kick, especially low round kicks because they are faster to deliver, stronger than high kicks, easier to disguise. In the last UFC, Pete Spratt caught his opponent (Lawler) with several well placed low leg round kicks that put him out.

    (low round kick to inside leg + knoledge of delivering it) squared x 4 kicks delivered divided by 2 rounds at a decreasing rate of 20% each round..... nevermind, he kicked his arse.
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

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