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Thread: What's the difference

  1. #1
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    Default What's the difference

    I was reading about Eizo Shimabukoro and on one site this caught my eye:

    Because Master Shimabukoro maintained the traditions and excellence of Shorin-ryu after Master Kyan's death, in 1959 Kangen Toyama, President of the All Japan Karatedo League and founder of Shudokan Karate, promoted him to tenth degree black belt. Kangen Toyama also appointed Master Shimabukoro the chairman, Okinawan Headquarters, of the All Japan Karatedo League. Two years later, in 1961, at the age of 36, he was awarded the tenth degree red belt, the youngest man ever to attain this status.
    So what's the difference between a 10. degree black belt and 10. degree red belt ? I had always thought that they were basically one and the same in those systems that use the red belt. Just curious, that's all...
    Timo Saksholm

    Shorin ryu Seibukan karate
    Jinbukan kobudo

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    Default

    Since there is no standardization, you should probably write to the organisation itself and ask them,

    then tell us here!
    "Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

  3. #3
    Gene Williams Guest

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    When I studied Wado, the highest belt was godan. Then they decided since everyone else gave 8 dan, they should, too. Then the honorary thing started. Next, voila...a whole bunch of Mickey Mouse belts.
    The only place they mean anything is within very orthodox ryu, where standards are maintainable, and even these have slipped. With the exception of the old guys who were given honorary dan by legit Japanese and Okinawan organizations, in this country the higher rank above 8th dan someone tells me they are, the more I am inclined to doubt their ability unless I see it. Gene

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    Wink

    Originally posted by Sochin
    Since there is no standardization, you should probably write to the organisation itself and ask them,

    then tell us here!
    Hey, that's a very good idea I think I'll do it, that is, if I'm not feeling too lazy later today (which is something that tends to happen quite often)
    Timo Saksholm

    Shorin ryu Seibukan karate
    Jinbukan kobudo

  5. #5
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    Default red belt

    Red 10th and Black 10th are basically the same. The red belt is more of a ceremonial belt you'd wear in special ocassions.

    Typically in Okinawa you work and test to your 5th degree and after that promotions are based on time, contributions to the art, how involved you are in politics, and sadly enought how big your clan is and how much clout you have accumulated over the years.

  6. #6
    MarkF Guest

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    Kangen Toyama also appointed Master Shimabukoro the chairman, Okinawan Headquarters, of the All Japan Karatedo League. Two years later, in 1961, at the age of 36, he was awarded the tenth degree red belt, the youngest man ever to attain this status.
    How does one attain any status if it is awarded? Isn't this another way of saying "honorary?"

    With the exception of the old guys who were given honorary dan by legit Japanese and Okinawan organizations, in this country the higher rank above 8th dan someone tells me they are, the more I am inclined to doubt their ability unless I see it. Gene
    I know this is out of my league, in regard to grading in the different karate organizations, so my questions are asked out of curiousity and to learn how this works in these organizations. Certainly, there are exceptions to the general rule in being given high rank, but in general, I agree with Gene here, with the caveat that I may not understand how it is given/earned/awarded/honored with grade to someone outside of Judo. Actually, outside of Japan I am skeptical of most grades above godan. In those organizations which represent judo, the US and other western countries are much more conservative in this than is Japan. In general, most judo fighters retired with a grade of godan and were awarded 6-dan for making it that far, though many do continue to compete well after that, a few into their seventies.

    I don't think I've heard of the All-Japan Karatedo League until now. Is it accepted in the same way as is the JKA?

    If this awarded 10-dan is related to the original dan-I system of grading, 9-dan, 10-dan and 11-dan are typically awarded a red belt. Most choose not to wear it in the every day motions in the dojo where it probably isn't necessary (no-one has been awarded anything over 10-dan, I'm stating the fact that there was room through 12-dan, and higher grades were also to be allowed for, in the old days). This would be Kodokan Judo grade.

    I don't know how old, but the quickest trip to shodan was three months, and to godan, two years by the same man. In those days, one had to fight five guys of those grades and beat them all, mostly by throwing them.

    I apologize if this is out of my knowledge base, but they all basically come from the same roots. I also know many have modified it.


    Mark

  7. #7
    Gene Williams Guest

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    Mark, In our organization, godan is the highest rank awarded on sheer ability, and the last rank we actually test for. 6th - 8th dan are given based upon further contributions to the ryu and the art in general such as teaching and producing quality students, helping with administratve and organizational projects, doing seminars and clinics, and just time in the arts. You don't quit learning, but it is just that it seems silly to be testing for those high dan ranks In our ryu, you are looking at 15-20 years to godan, anyway. We do not promote to shodan under 16 years old. You know, I have just always thought that claiming all this high rank (those who really have it rarely talk about it), wearing fancy belts with 20 stripes on them, and gi with 27 patches, just screams, "Hey, look at me!" I just always wonder who they are trying to convince. One time at a clinic back in the seventies, Kunibalistened to a bunch of dan arguing about rank and the discussion that followed. He disappeared for a while, then walked back in with belts tiedon his body from his waist to his shoulders "O.K., how many dan am I now." Gene

  8. #8
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    Default Red Belt

    The red belt is more of a ceremonial belt you'd wear in special ocassions.
    I had a red belt in the seventies. It matched well with my marshmallows.
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  9. #9
    Gene Williams Guest

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    I was given one of those six inches white, six inches red belts by our organization so that "everyone will know who the seniors are at seminars, etc." The first time I wore it, one of my smart ass seniors told me I looked like a barber pole. I quit wearing it. If a plain black belt was good enough for Funakoshi, Mabuni, Kuniba, etc. it ought to be good enough for everybody. "It ain't the belt that knocks the guy down." Gene

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    If a plain black belt was good enough for Funakoshi, Mabuni, Kuniba, etc. it ought to be good enough for everybody. "It ain't the belt that knocks the guy down." Gene
    Haleiluyah! Can I get a witness?
    A friend of mine once posted a good article called "The Belt Is In The Ring" which was pretty good.
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  11. #11
    hobbitbob Guest

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    Originally posted by Gene Williams
    I was given one of those six inches white, six inches red belts by our organization so that "everyone will know who the seniors are at seminars, etc." The first time I wore it, one of my smart ass seniors told me I looked like a barber pole.
    Barber, eh? Does that mean that the 20 year olds I see with them are also claiming to be surgeons?

  12. #12
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    Default age wise

    Barber, eh? Does that mean that the 20 year olds I see with them are also claiming to be surgeons?
    I think too much importance is placed on rank these days. It's like a status symbol. Most of them are way short of that perceived skill level. Kinda like a barber pole.
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  13. #13
    Gene Williams Guest

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    Giving a high dan belt to a 20 year old is like handing a guy a gallon of jet fuel for his Harley...he's really gonna' look stupid getting killed Gene

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    Giving a high dan belt to a 20 year old is like handing a guy a gallon of jet fuel for his Harley...he's really gonna' look stupid getting killed Gene
    Got a light to go with that?
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  15. #15
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    IS the belt just plain red ? or is it red and white ? If it is red and white it signifies shihan ranking
    Ben Wallace

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