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Thread: Zen Mind, Beginners Mind

  1. #16
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    It's cool to see a conversation begin about this book.
    In the part entitled "Negative And Positive", he says:
    "Dogen-zenji said, ' When you say something to someone, he may not accept it, but do not try to make him understand it intellectually. Do not argue with him; just listen to his objections until he finds something wrong with them'".....
    You teach yourself, given the chance.
    In the expert's mind there are few possibilities.........
    What do you think?
    Jack Wilkinson

  2. #17
    Gene Williams Guest

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    We all like to argue. I do it and it is enjoyable as long as no one gets upset. But, when you think about it, it is never "big mind." People have to find their own way and we cannot intellectually persuade them which way that is. I think we are really arguing with ourselves when we argue. Now, we have to ask ourselves "why" are we arguing, then? Gene

  3. #18
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    Default Good Point !

    Good Point Gene ! In my personal view, often a friendly banter can often result in productive ideas. This works well in business, where a new product or concept is introduced, often you have the skeptics who will attempt to persuade you that the "product", concept or "Ideas" won't work or sell. Once you can persuade the nay- sayers, you are pretty much trying to persuade yourself.
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

  4. #19
    wendy ongaro Guest

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    It's not unusual in medicine to have a patient who is dead set against a treatment, even though it works, because of a misunderstanding or misinformation on the patient's part. If I suggest a treatment, and the patient shoots it down without even giving it consideration, I let it be (unless, of course, its a life threatening situation). Often another, less effective treatment is initiated, and I communicate clearly to my patient that I do not expect the treatment to be as helpful. In a couple weeks, the patient will often return with his problem unresolved, and will be open not only to my current recommendations, but the ones I make in the future about other problems.

    Why do I choose this strategy- one, I don't have alot of time to argue, two, I am not going to gain the patient's trust by arguing, and three, why waste my emotional energy in conflict? ultimately, I'm not the one who has to be sick. I want to see my patients healthy and happy, but it amazes me how many people don't really want to be healthy and happy, so why should I throw effort after foolishness and get in the way of their ambitions?

    So when I read this parable, this is what I think of.

  5. #20
    dlm303 Guest

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    I bought the book and Barnes and Noble last night and am planning to start reading tonight. After reading this thread, I can't wait for the journey to begin.

  6. #21
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    I'm not much into the whole answer a question with an all-knowing glistening-eyed question (although some aspects of zen are attractive, especially the lay variety), so I'll just give me interpretatins.

    _______________________________________________
    On page 31, CONTROL. The passage is:

    "To give your sheep or cow a large spacious meadow is the way to control him"
    _______________________________________________
    Basically, animals are naturally averse to confinement and closed spaces. If you have seen footage of chickens and pigs and other livestock packed into cages and 200% capacity or more, you know that they become deranged and very violently psychotic. Why? Because ALL animals need space to roam. But if you put those same animals on a free-range farm, they would calm down and be quite happy and cooperative, and probably wouldn't even notice that they were still confined to a designated area within fences. The same with humans. If you impose too many restrictions on them and dictate their behavior to the point of they feelinglike they have no freedons at all, they will become deranged and have to express those forbidden drives or desires in sociably unacceptable ways. A prime example would be the Victorian upper and middle classes in England. Intense levels of suppression of their own behavior to abide by extensive social norms created all those dodgy venues in the backstreets and the underbelly of society for them to release their desire to be more animalistic: brothels, SM parlors, opium dens, and more. The extremes of suppression cause extremes in the opposite behaviors when the person find the outlets (which will arise to capitalize on that very phenomenon). If you want people to be cooperative or passive without having to crush them down and risk a backlash with unpredictable consequences, make them feel like they are free, despite them bein in a fences in pasture designed to your own liking. This ties into the next quote below.


    _________________________________________________
    on Page 32 on the same Subject:

    "The best way to control people is to allow them to be mischeivous"
    _________________________________________________
    This is an incomplete version of a well-known application of human psychology. The general law is much more expansive, in that it doesn't restrict freedom just to mischeivousness, but the freedom to be whatever the individual wants to be (within certain limits). The law is spelled out quite beautifully in Robert Greene's the 48 Laws of Power (a book I highly recommend for those who may not want to coerce people, but at least want to defend against control and coercion by schemers and plotters around office), the brief explanation of the law within the table of contents goes like this:

    Control the Options: Get Others to Play the Cards you Deal-
    The best deceptions are the ones thaat seem to give people a choice: your victims are in control, but are actually your puppets. Give people options that come out in your favor whichever one they choose.Force them to make choices between the lesser of two evils, both of which serve your purpose. Put them on the horns of a dilemma: They are gored wherever they turn.

    Now mind you, this person uses very powerful and sometimes offensive (to the white doves amongst us) language to describe very real laws applicable to controlling fellow humankind. Nonetheless his historical case studies are spot on in rvealing how these laws were effectively utilized.

    Anyway, while there are a few nice things in zen, I have never liked the answer-question-with-question-thereby-not-really answering-anything-but-looking-like-I-could-if-I-wanted-to-thereby-making-myself-look-wise style of trying to help people actualize their lives. It's based on the premise that people have plenty of time just to sit around like cloistered monks and ponder questions to somehow create some kind of psychological serendipity. Life is short, and our lives will be over in a flash. Would you rather ponder sayings of wisdom that have been acknowledged as true through the ages or some question which may or may not really have any bearing on taking you further down the road of wise living. There is a quote in the bible that goes "It's better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." Like I said, there are some things I like about Zen, but smart-assed (even if well intended) questions to questions should only be used sparing, bit exclusively, in my humble opinion. And their frequent use creates doubt in me whether the person knows jack-all about real wisdom and the real world. No intent to flame here. Just being frank.
    Greg Ellis
    I like autumn best of all, because its tone is mellower, its colors are richer and it is tinged with a little sorrow. Its golden richness speaks not of the innocence of spring, nor the power of summer, but of the mellowness and kindly wisdom of approaching age. It knows the limitations of life and it is content.

  7. #22
    Gene Williams Guest

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    Greg, I think you are over-analyzing Gene

  8. #23
    wendy ongaro Guest

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    I do like just throwing out ideas when it comes to these parables. My interpretation or your interpretation may not be right, correct, or even close to the mark, but they all make us consider different aspects of the natural order of both man and the universe. I in no way feel I have THE ANSWER- just a perspective.

  9. #24
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    Gene,
    I think you are under-analyzing. Greg
    Greg Ellis
    I like autumn best of all, because its tone is mellower, its colors are richer and it is tinged with a little sorrow. Its golden richness speaks not of the innocence of spring, nor the power of summer, but of the mellowness and kindly wisdom of approaching age. It knows the limitations of life and it is content.

  10. #25
    Gene Williams Guest

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    I'll add some if you'll subtract some Gene

  11. #26
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    I gave my sheep and my cow the whole outdoors. Now they can never run away. I can never find them, but they are there for me somewhere.
    joe yang, the three edged sword of truth

    "Not going to be fooled by you again Joe Yang's right you are evil and self-serving." Haiyomi

    "Give my regards to joe yang. very intelligent man." Sojobow

  12. #27
    wendy ongaro Guest

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    sounds like ranching in Wyoming. hope the don't run into any lonely cowboys

    you know why it's called "mountin' time" out here...where men are men and sheep are nervous...

  13. #28
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    Try this interpretation out.

    The cow and sheep only will see what is in front of them. They can't percieve anything else or go to a higher level of perception. Give them a wide field with lots of grass to eat, and they will always stay because they see no barrier. They have their desire.

    If people are mischevious, then they are caught up in their own small thoughts and carrying out of their desires, looking at every blade of grass, clover and plant that is in front of them. People, who are capable of higher thinking, will often see barriers where they do not naturally exist.

    Either way, both are trapped and can be directed, neither breaking out of their 'karmic habits' or going beyond the barrier of their own desires.

    Neither group can see the wind rippling across the entire field, but even if you can, is it the grass moving or only your mind which causes the motion?

    (This isn't entirely fair since I've been reading the Mumonkan.)

    J. Vlach, Amsterdam

  14. #29
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    Does a cow have buddha nature?
    joe yang, the three edged sword of truth

    "Not going to be fooled by you again Joe Yang's right you are evil and self-serving." Haiyomi

    "Give my regards to joe yang. very intelligent man." Sojobow

  15. #30
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