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Thread: Humble origins?

  1. #16
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    To specify a Ryu, usually the sorts of training employed are given to it (like it is done in Bugei Ryuha Daijiten). So one can go and state (for example):

    Tawada Ryű (Saijutsu)
    Yamane Ryű (Bôjutsu)
    Matsumura-ha (Karate, Kobujutsu)
    Ufuchiku-den (Kobudô)
    Soeishi Ryű (Bôjutsu)
    Shuri-te (Karate)
    Naha-te (Karate)

    and so on.

    Maybe it would be correct to say:
    Motobu Ryű Bujutsu (Kenjutsu, Naginatajutsu, ... Odori, ...)???
    Best regards

    Andreas Quast

    We are Pope!

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    Hello Andreas,
    I figured that may have been your point as stated with regards the lineage that included Sacharanoski, but was unsure.

    Also accept your point about Matsumura being bodyguard, definitely undisputed and was quite possibly a Tode (tuti) instructor to them.

    Sho Tai was last King, Sho Ten was his son (as you correctly state he was not King he was just Crown Prince/Marquis).

    The Motobu family can be traced back to Prince Sho Koshin (Sixth son of King Sho Shitsu who reigned as a puppett king from 1648 until 1688 this was the period following Satsuma invasion) who taught King Sho Tei (d.1709)others include a Motobu Choku who taught King Sho Kei (d. 1751), A Motobu Chokyu who taught King Sho Boku (d 1794). Motobu Chosho (Father of Motobu Choyu) taught last 3 Ryukan Kings and as you state Sokon Matsumura was body guard to them. Hence why I suspect that there is some Jigen Ryu influence.

    Motobu Udun Ryu is as you correctly state is a Bu Jutsu and does not belong to Karate or Kobudo. Perhaps as well to point out here that it was actually Seikichi Uehara (13th headmaster) who named the system Motobu Ryu after his teacher Choyu Motobu out of respect for him and the Motobu family system. Seitoku Higa before he trained with Uehara had studied a system of Te under Kishomoto Soko.

    There are some Okinawan weapons in Motobu Ryu as well as Japanese ones that are taught at bot the Seidokan and Bugeikan, whether this is due to Matsumura influence on the style or Higa's own involvement or even due to the okinawan Tode Research club formulated by Choyu Motobu in 1924 is to my mind open to question. The weapons in Motobu Ryu these days include: Goshaku jo, nijo tanbo, uchi bo, jo, nunchaku, tonfa, kai or eku, nicho kama,sai, yari, naginata, katana and tanto and also Tessen.

    After Uehara became successor to the style he promoted firstly with a demonstration at Kumamoto Prefectures Okinawan Festival (this was in 1964 he was assisted I believe by Seiki Toma) and then in 1969 formulated the Motobu Ryu Kobu-Jutsu Association as an umbrella to popularise the style, this organization became part of Seitoku Higa's organization the All Okinawan Karate and Kobudo Association set up in 1967, Higa had at this time just become a serious student of Uehara).

    Kobu jutsu in this context means old (ko) martial (bu) art (jutsu), .
    The article written by anither of Uehara's student Miyagi Takeo for the Okinawan times (september 1974) is headed Motobu-Ryu Te. The system includes what is called Tori Te (Taking hands) this same term has often been used to describe a forerunner of Ju Jutsu on the mainland, though there are other Te's included in Motobu Ryu i.e. moto te and ogami-te. Motobu Ryu certainly does involve softness and throwing with hand grappling techniques which are performed against both armed (using the weapons stated above) and unarmed opponents.



    Best Regards

    Chris Norman

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    Hi Chris,

    there were many new things for me in your posts, enough for lenghty research for me. So I felt responsible to give something back; took me quite a fiew hours So here are my thoughts (Hope the Kanji thing is ok).

    I have notices that there are differencies between Karate, Kobudo and Motobu Ryu. Concerning Torite: At THIS PAGE is given that Uehara Seikichi was originator of Motobu Udundi 本部御殿手(上原清吉宗家) and that he introduced Moto-de (?) 1 and 2 元手1・2, Kassen -bō 合戦棒 and ! Torite 取り手. However, it is an organization called Seidoukai and is basically a Karate lineage.

    In the following I have cut a quote out of the context because I found it interesting and fitting to the topic: Meik Skoss wrote in the The Iaido Newsletter Vol 10/12 #97 Dec 1998: Questions and Answers. Ryukyu Kobudo vs Nihon Kobudo:

    “The last ten years of so, Uechi Seikichi of Motobu-ryu udundi (that's how it's said in Okinawan dialect, the characters read quite differently) has done a number of demonstrations that involve all manner of weapons. The major problem is (I'm looking at it from a Japanese weapons arts-trained point of view) though, that it looks really lame. Maybe they *did* actually train with a sword, glaive, spear like that. But if that were so, they sure never faced a trained warrior. If they had, the Motobu family line would've been nipped in the bud. The second problem is that there's very little historical evidence to back up his party line that it's a legitimate system that's been passed down over the years.”

    Motobu Udundi may not be viewed in common terms of Karate or Ryukyu Kobudo, but – as the title of a book written by Uehara Seikichi shows - also not in terms of Nihon Kobudo. The book is called:
    Bu no Mai. Ryukyu Oke hiden Bujutsu. Motobu ryu Udundi 武の舞. 琉球王家秘伝武術. 本部流御殿手.
    Bu No Mai 武の舞 means as much as “martial dance” or “dance of the Martial arts.” And I guess that this martial dance was not meant for fighting the Satsuma or something like that. One needs to consider the unique Okinawan history and their resulting point of view etc. in certain times of history. Apart from it all, I guess (again) the Ryukyu princes of 19th century were not much better than the pathetical figures of Japanese Daimyo (as Erwin Baelz has taught us), so maybe it was just their kind of work-out.

    As was pointed out, King Shō Shitsu’s (尚質, reigned 1648-1668) 6th son was Shō Kōshin (尚弘信). He was the 5th prince of Shō Shitsu’s family, simply because Shô Shitsu’s first and eldest son Shô Tei 尚貞 became king (from 1669-1709). Shō Kōshin’s complete name is given as Shō Kōshin Motobu Ōji Chōhei. This seems to mean that Shō Kōshin’s “normal” name was Chōhei and that he was the Prince of Motobu.

    Two more pieces of information are:
    康煕十一年六月十五日任尚氏本部王子朝平大親職
    On June 15th, 1672, the Shō family prince Chōhei of Motobu was employed as Ufuya (lit.: “great father”, some kind of administrative post I guess).

    乾隆十五年庚午三月任尚氏本部王子朝隆大親職同年五月十三日朝隆因病卒而辞職
    In March 1750 (year of the horse), the Shō family prince Chōryū of Motobu was employed as Ufuya. In the same year on 13th of May Chōryū withdraw from this because of illness.

    Although the Ryukyu Shimpo gives the same story of the royal family lineage and the differences to Karate and Kobudo styles, it also states: 継承の裏付け史料が不十分との指摘もあるが, which I would translate as „the supporting historical records are insufficient,” but of course I could be wrong. This, however, would be no wonder, because much had been destroyed in WWII. All the Dunchi 殿内 of the Ryukyu samurai class ( if I may call it this way) and the Shuri Kizoku (nobles, aristocrats) have been destroyed. The only residence of the Ryukyu samurai class left in its original state was Miyara Dunchi 宮良殿内 (みやらドゥンチ), located in Ishigaki City 石垣市, Ishigaki Island, and which was built in the second year of Bunsei (1819) by the Yaeyama leader Miyara Pechin 宮良親雲上.

    I guess (again) that the home of the Princes of Motobu was such Udun, a palace, a stately home, an administrative unit or whatever, but not the kings palace. In fact, Udun in Ryukyu times was not the palace of the king himself, but they were broad residences, in which princes or anji lived. Udun 御殿 literally means “control palace,” and in fact it was (also) an administrative center, and the Motobu Udun was the residence for one lineage of Ryukyu princes.

    So Motobu Udun-di only later came to the royal court in Shuri, at least at the times of Matsumura; a time, when many of Kobudo traditions developed; before all nearly collapsed with the abolishion of the Ryukyu Kingdom.

    The following quote should come from Mark Bishop's "Okinawan Karate" and shows one more connection between little Okinawas Kobudo protagonists: "The botanist Shinju Tawata remembered that when he was a boy he saw a ti demonstration by Chōyū Motobu in which Motobu seemed to be dancing and was totally relaxed, but whenever anyone closed on him, he would immediately throw them without interrupting the flow of his dance.“
    This Shinju Tawata I guess (again) was the son of Tawada Pechin (Tawada Shinboku), which was a student of Matsumura and founder of Tawada no Sai. I could be wrong. One time I ordered a book by one Tawada Shinboku at Okinawa Museum, but it was about geography and such, but not was I was looking for.
    Last edited by Shikiyanaka; 5th December 2003 at 00:03.
    Best regards

    Andreas Quast

    We are Pope!

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    Hi Andreas,
    Glad that the information in my posts was useful and thanks for the information in your reply.

    I Believe that Seidoukai (aka Seidokan?) may be something to do with Seitoku Higa, who has recently developed something called Seido (We could perhaps classify this as a new Okinawan religious movement, though a small and private one). Both Seitoku Higa and Seiki Toma both studied with Seikichi Uehara, and as peviously said Seidoukai/Seidokan may have Okinawan nationalist connotations.Both Seiki Toma and Seitoku Higa are karate men, and Motobu Ryu was promoted through Higa's organization, but only Seiki Toma and Uehara named their dojo's Seidokan, whilst Shian Toma (another karateka) who trained for a while with Uehara names his organisation Seidokan.

    Seitoku Higa (Bugeikan) however is now allegedly making some claims about a Te that stems from Motobu Seijin (Motobu the Sage) and these date back long before what Uehara claims about his Motobu Ryu, but Higa originally trained in Te with Kishomoto Soko.

    I cannot see how some of the claims Higa may be making can possibly be substantiated except perhaps through classical court dances (Odori) but this is not the way they are being substantiated.

    So I agree with Meik Skoss' point about the lack of historical evidence to back up some of the claims because if they were true some of the stuff that I am aware of that has recently been claimed about Motobu Ryu would date it long before the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu (Earliest documented Nihon Ko Ryu) or even Choju Ryu (Perhaps earlier but not documented). But as you state records may have been lost in the war (rather convenient).

    I Would also agree that Motobu Ryu looks lame. Though some of the empty hand techniques do resemble to a certain extent Nihon Aiki Ho Jutsu. There is also a very strong (though in my opinion strange type of) Ki emphasis.

    However Mark Bishop who trained for quite a while under both Seikichi Uehara and Seitoku Higa has demonstrated some interesting and at times quite frightening subtleties in what he does (He used to come to one of the Dojo's I used to train and teach at quite regularly to teach Te). Its definitely soft in its techniques. Mark claims that much of this Te was developed through informal exchanges between Satsuma agents and Okinawan Shizoku and became a highly personalised system for both health and self defence. Another interesting point in relation to this is that some of the grips used are not dissimiliar to what is called Gakkun (a form of grip) based on Koho Shiatsu as taught in the Hakko Ryu.

    Some mainland sword styles (as you are probably aware) claim their origins from sword dances and certainly some of the stuff I have seen from Motobu Ryu looks a little like some Kenbu I have seen, but some of the Okinawan Odori that I have seen is very different from some of the techniques that are based on Odori in Motobu Ryu. So any historical claims of Motobu Ryu may only be able to be substantiated through Dance. Especially as some of the Motobu Ryu footwork involves raising up on to the toes for certain techniques.


    Best regards
    Chris Norman

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    Hi Chris,

    I just received a link from a buddy where I found the Motobu lineage:
    Here, than "Motobu Udunti" and than scroll down.
    I guess it is exactly the way you stated.
    Best regards

    Andreas Quast

    We are Pope!

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    Hi Andreas,

    Nice link. Thanks.

    Best Regards

    Chris Norman

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    Hi Andreas,
    Your last post before recnt link prompted me to dig out so old references on Uehara's Motobu Ryu lineage in answer to your point:

    'Uehara's Ryukyu Oke hiden Bujutsu. Motobu ryu Udundi ???. ????????. ?????? And I guess that this martial dance was not meant for fighting the Satsuma or something like that'.

    The Motobu Ryu Bu Jutsu Odori lineage (Bu No Mai) if the claim about Motobu Chokyu teaching Sho Boku are true would have to link to the following Kumi Odori:

    Kumi Odori Manzai Tekiuchi
    Tasato Chochoku (1733-73) wrote Manzai Tekiuchi as entertainment for Chinese Emissaries vistiting Ryuku for investure of King Sho Boku in 1756.

    Story of Drama:
    Takadera has killed Ojana's father following a quarell over a horse (Ojana's horse) Jana nu shi (Ojana's son) decides to slay Takadera but will need the help of his younger brother Keiun who has become a monk. Disguised as travelling musicians they visit Takedara's beach party where he is being entertained by music and dancing and slay him.

    According to Ueharas Motobu Ryu lineage the Te instructor to King Sho Boku was Motobu Chokyu (and not Choku 'who was appointed Ufuya in 1750 but retired due to illness the same year'. Choku was instructor to King Sho Kei who died following year 1751).
    Though I do not dispute your point about break in lineage as Court Te instructor for King Sho On (d.1882) is uknown as is Court Te instructor before Motobu Chokyo. At least according to Uehara's Motobu lineage. (I note from your recent link that they have been quite clever in the way that they seem to have kept continuity recently issued lineage documents).

    Kumi ODori Manzai Tekiuchi relates to Ojana (A Family name and place of Uehara's Seidokan Dojo) some of the Odori are done outside of the Drama and are then called Takadera Manzai. These are some of the main items in the Nisai Odori (Young Mens) dance category.

    I suspect strongly that the three dramas or other items in this category (Nissai Odori) represent tales of Naha, Shuri and Tomari. For example another one in the Nisai Odori category is Menuhama (Named after a beach in Naha)and is performed to Menuhama Bushi, Sakahara Bushi and Yunabaru Bushi.

    The other items by this author written for the occasion were
    Gishon Monogatari (Tales of Loyal Retainers)
    Ogusuku Kuzure (Fall of Ogusuku castle)

    There are various other tales of revenge taken from the history of families and villages prior to Satsuma invasion which have been choreographed into operatic dance dramas (Kumi Odori) under various dance commissioners appointed under Satsuma yoke. For example the dance commissioner Tamagusuku Chokun (1684-1738) who wrote Nido Tekiuchi and Shushin Kanieri for visiting Satsuma officials in 1719.
    The Te is in the fight scenes of these dramas (But the Te court instructor to King Sho Eki in Motobu Ryu is stated as unknown!) .

    So it is IMHO likely that if there was an Satsuma involvement in any of the martial arts techniques it would have had to have been through the Jigen Ryu, the weapons in the Manzai Tekiuchi seem to suggest this. These performances were apparently popular with visiting Satsuma dignataries.

    Jigen Ryu
    I Can trace Jigen Ryu back to Taisha Ryu and its earlier name Taisha Shinkage Ryu (Taisha Shinkage Ryu founder: Murame Kurodo No Suke Nagayoshi 1540-1629).

    Apparently one of Murame's students trained under Kamiizumi Nobutsuna (Murame's original teacher) and then returned to Marume who then dropped Shinkage from name as the style had evolved differently. Murame sought out his teacher again but not in time before his death. So the lineage may have split into Jigen Ryu (founded by Murame's Student Togo Shigejura (1561-1643)) and something else. But as yet can not trace who this student of Murame's is who trained with Kamiizumi.

    So it looks likely the Japanese weapons if they came later i.e. with Matsumura Sokon which would have been via Yashiciro Ijuin of Jigen Ryu, or possibly even Sakugawa. Wondered whether this may have reflected different interpretations of Taisha Ryu in the Jigen Ryu (?).

    It was Marume (Taisha Shinkage Ryu) who assisted Kamiizumi in a demonstration before Ashikaga Yoshiteru Shogun. This is by some sources seen as the origin of Muto (Literally No Sword. Techniques performed against a swordsman whilst unarmed) and could be classified as Torite (taking hands). These were restraint and disarming techniques not battlefield techniques as such, though they claimed to be based on them.

    Uehara's Motobu Ryu appears to have a similiar interpretation. Though this could easily have come from Aikido which Seitoku Higa's son Reiko practises.

    In Motobu Ryu Modo te/moto te just means original hand. If modo te and tori te were the only techniques that were introduced by Uehara, the other others such as Ogami Te (Prayer hand) Nuki te (draw hand) would have been earlier (How much earlier remains open to question).

    The only thing Uehara does resembling karate in anyway is Moto Te Sanchin (Much softer usual than Naha versions. i.e. Uechi Ryu and Goju Ryu) though his Dojo is part of a karate organization (Seidokan)though they all do what may be regarded as Karate weapons.

    The dance done by Motobu Choyu that Mark Bishop describes is probably an early version of what is now called the Anjikata No Mai no Te (Dance Hand of Lords) which Uehara teaches, but its unlike a karate kata and evolves as Seitoku Higa has his own rendition.

    Rojin Odori (Dances of Elderly/Longetivity)
    This dance was originally called Gozenfu/Kajidefu (Before the Lords).
    As regards the Ufuya, wondered if this might have something to do with Rojin Odori (Dances of Elderly)?. It was originally performed to welcome foreign dignataries and at start of any auspicious occassion by people of all ages. This dance is performed to the melody of Kajidifu Bushi and is only extant item in this category.

    Onna Dori
    Classical category 7 womens dances.
    Kasekake Odori (thread spindle Dance) performed to Shichishaku Bushi.
    Interpreted in Motobu Ryu as martial movements with thread spindle.

    So what do we have here:
    Anjikata No Mai no Te (Dance Hand of Fedual Lords).
    Kajidefu (Before the Lords) Now Rojin Odori (Old Peoples Dances).
    Takadera Manzai main item in Nissai Dori (Young Mens Dances).

    Kihon Te (Basic hand: hand formations for striking)
    Karami Te (Tangled hands): This involves trapping and grappling.
    Ogami Te (Prayer hand):
    Nuki Te (Drawing hand): This relates to drawing a Katana
    .
    Added by Uehara (I suspect on basis of Nuki Te)
    Modu Te (Original hand)
    Tori Te (Taking hand)

    Suspect these have been added by Uehara as well:
    Tori Te Gaeshi (hand grappling return)
    Uragaeshi Te (hand grappling reversal)

    So it seems that Uehara's Motobu Ryu cannot be traced to much earlier than 1750 through the Odori line.

    So what about Seitoku Higa and his teacher Soko Kishimoto (1866-1945) who was taught by Takemura this line cant be an earlier than 1896 at least in Shuri, where the tax collector Takemura retired to. Besides Takemura was a student of Sokon Matsumura, so we are back to Sagukawa again and through him to Peichin Takemura (1683-1760), teachers unknown.

    So what about Higa's claims to an earlier system that has links to main land:
    I am unable to determine any other possible Japanese connections accept perhaps through the Jigen Ryu, or more specifically the Taisha Shinkage Ryu as interpreted in the later part of the Taisha Ryu, which for all intents and purposes became Jigen Ryu.

    Jigen Ryu Bo Odori may hold the answer to these claims:
    1. Nihon Budo Taikei volume 8 page 51: 'Lord Shimizu instructed the second generation headmaster Togo Bizen no Kami Shigekata (1602-1659) to teach self defence tactics to farmers and peasants in Satsuma' (McCarthy 1995:51). Pat McCarthy points out that these techniques were disguised as Jigen Ryu Bo Odori, a folk dance.
    2. Jigen Ryu Bo-Odori includes (see McCarthy Ibid): Jo vs Katana, Bo vs Yari. Also other weapons were Eiku (Oar), Kama (Scythe), Shakuhachi (Flute).
    3. Same weapons are seen in Motobu Ryu as taught by both Uehara's and Seitoku Higa's (Bueikan) Dojo's.
    4. Pat McCarthy spoke to 11th generation headmaster of Jigen Ryu, but it is uncertain which (Jigen Ryu) or Okinawan indigenous fighting traditions influenced which.

    If the Taisha Shinkage Ryu link could be proven and this would have to be via Jigen Ryu and Takemura, then it is possible that the Jigen Ryu Bo-Odori may have had some Hozo In Ryu influence (which seems plausible), but this assumes are strong Kamiizumi Ryu influence on Taisha Ryu and that the Kamiizumi Ryu Influence carried on in to the Jigen Ryu. This would be the only thing as far as i can ascertain that would support the claims made by Seitoku Higa about some of his Te (which is composite and includes Motobu Ryu, Higa's claims are however separate, but may be influential).

    So it seems that Uehara's Motobu Ryu cannot be dated much before 1756, unless some techniques can be traced to the Odori in the work of Tamagusuku Chokun (1684-1738)but even then it cannot be before 1718. At least on the basis of the available evidence.
    However Uehara is in his former students Seitoku Higa's organization and it is Higa who is making earlier claims. These claims in Motobu Ryu are supported by the descendancy of the Motobu family to King Sho Shitsu via Prince Ko Shin.


    Best Regards

    Chris Norman

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    Hi Chris,

    happy new year! I'am going underground...
    Best regards

    Andreas Quast

    We are Pope!

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    Chris: great posts.

    If I can add a bit of oral tradition to your posts. I have been told by a few old okinawans that during those periods of time when training in martial arts was banned and had to go underground that moves and techniques were hidden in dance. I have heard this several times from several okinawan Sensei and their family.

    Two... Here is a theory about why only the Upper class trained for the most part in Okinawa.

    Once again this is an oral tradition handed down but I have also heard it from several prominent western sensei who do the seminar circut. I will leave it to them to add or subtract from this story.

    Think of the times, you have a military run state that has taken over your country, you are most likely starving trying to pay the taxes and to make things worse the conqurer has removed all your weapons, that means even knives to cut your food. You have a central place in the village where you have a knife tied to a post and a stump to cut your food on. Possibly there is a "constable" watching the knive on a regular basis.

    Now the constable is the village sherrif, most likely a nare do well countryman of yours that is being paid by the conqurer to keep the peace. He was most likely one of the local land owners before the country was taken over, but was someone of signifigant position.

    So who did the training of the martial arts in secret, the starving villagers or the local hood who was also just trying to make his way in life?

    That perspective is something to think about. It takes the romance of all these villagers running off in the dead of night to train in secret, but reality would dictate they were to tired to train.

    It has been suggested by some that the martial arts of okinawa were actually studied in secret by the "families of position" because they were the only ones who could afford the time and who had the energy at the end of the day.

    Its an idea and I think one well worth a little thought.

    Mike O'Leary
    Old Dragon

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    Also look at the metaphysics. Lebra, William P. Okinawan Religion: Belief, Ritual, and Social Structure (Honolulu: University of Hawai’i Press, 1985) is very good.

    Anyway, back in the day, before the Japanese army turned tombs into pillboxes, Okinawan grave rituals included people going out to the tomb every few months to do various rites. In between, they hired young fellows to guard the tombs from grave robbers. Somewhere, I have a Japan Times article from the 1920s on this.

    In prewar Okinawa, ghosts were often believed to be real, thus the grave rites. So, you're the young guy hired to hang out in the graveyard all night. You don't really believe in ghosts, but still... So, think you might be interested in trying some of the South Chinese exorcism rituals as described in Lagerwey, John. Taoist Ritual in Chinese Society and History (New York: Macmillan, 1987)? Could be.

    In that case, you'd be doing Southern Shaolin quarterstaff forms.

    A couple other bibliographic citations:

    Kreiner, Josef, editor. Sources of Ryukyuan History and Culture in European Collections (Munich: Iudicium, 1996)
    Sakamaki, Shunzo. Ryukyu: A Bibliographic Guide to Okinawan Studies (Honolulu: University of Hawai’i Press, 1963)
    Sakihara, Mitsugu. A Brief History of Early Okinawa based on the Omoro Soshi (Tokyo: Honpo Shoseki Press, 1987)

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    Joe...

    Even today, I know of families that still practice the rites at the tombs of thier ancestors. It is a big part of the Shinto religion which is a major influence in Okinawa.

    Mike O'Leary.
    Old Dragon

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    Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
    In that case, you'd be doing Southern Shaolin quarterstaff forms.
    Are you saying that a certain Southern Shaolin quarterstaff form really is a form of exoricism? That would explain some strange moves you might see in Chinese martial arts. I have been told that there are similar weapon exercises in Japan but such rituals are clearly not martial.
    Jakob Ryngen

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    Hi,

    I am not sure if the term Odo(ri) has been interpreted correctly.
    There is Odo 踊 meaning dance/dancing, as most people would translate.

    But as a discipline (for example Jigen Ryű Bo Odo) it is sometimes listed as Odo 躍, meaning jumping. So it is quite questionable if this was really a "dance," or more
    some strange moves you might see in Chinese martial arts
    or "weapons jumping."
    Best regards

    Andreas Quast

    We are Pope!

  14. #29
    Join Date
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    Joseph,
    William Lebra's work is very good it was one of the sources I used when doing the Ethnomusicology module on Shamanism during my Anthropology training at SOAS but seem to recall that it is mainly concerned with the female spirit mediums and local rituals and is now a little dated. That of course does not negate its value in relation to this subject as it covers a lot of interesting and relevant points. Especially in relation to the Bugeikan under Seitoku Higa and his Seido religion encouraged by his wife.
    Unfortunately Lebra is a difficult work to get hold of in the UK and an expensive one.Thanks for the other references next time when I am at SOAS I will check these out.

    Andreas,
    Happy New Year.
    As regards Odori there is some very springing and leaping footwork in Motobu Ryu and at the Bugeikan but they classify it as having come from dance.

    As for Jigen Ryu Bo Odori I was following McCarthy's reference, who states that these Jigen Ryu Kata's were disguised as a folk dance, but I have not as far as I am aware seen these Jigen Ryu Bo Odo, though would love too. So would not be surprised at all 'if it was questionable if it was really a dance or more'especially given the Kanji.

    Best Regards

    Chris Norman

  15. #30
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    Jakob --

    A theory of mine is that the patterns of many traditional kata follow astrological patterns. Ever seen a Buddhist or Vedic horoscope? Check the patterns, and you'll see what I mean. There are also Chinese forms known as "star-walking," and this implies kata.

    Numerology is also important.

    Unfortunately, astrology doesn't tend to get much respectful academic attention, and even less in translation. This is unfortunate, as for thousands of years, it was the science of its day, and a lot of things that we would now explain in terms of physics or biochemistry used to be explained in terms of astrology.

    Anyway, from Kronos, About 1275 CE:

    A mathematical text called "Continuation of Ancient Mathematical Methods for Elucidating the Strange Properties of Numbers" introduces magic squares into China. Magic squares arrange numbers in such a way that the numerals along any row or diagonal always add up the same. Sample magic squares include:

    6-1-8
    7-5-3
    2-9-4

    13-08-15
    14-12-10
    09-16-11

    The first combination of numerals is a solar pattern whose root is 5. Everything adds up to 15, and the total of all the numbers is 45. This pattern shows the full development of the five natural energies (earth, wind, fire, water, and metal), and establishes a fundament from which everything else can proceed. The second combination is a north lunar pattern whose root is the numeral 8. The columns add up to 36, and the total of all the numbers is 108. It symbolizes leadership potential and good fortune. In China, intellectuals such as Huang Kung-chin and Chiang Shu-yü created "star-walks," or rhythmic moving meditations, based upon these patterns. Different planets and constellations (and hence energies) were evoked using different patterns, and the star-walks were used both for private meditation and public exorcism. Demon-slaying weapons included mallets and cleavers (butchers were often in need of exorcisms), staffs (a quarterstaff was yang, while a singlestick was ying), and sword-hands (two rigid fingers raised toward the sky). If the star-walker pointed his weapon toward heaven, the gods bowed. If the star-walker pointed his weapon toward the earth, the earth welcomed him. Finally, if he pointed the weapon at demons, they fled. Because of the quasi-theatrical nature of exorcisms, some star-walks contained flashy movement and fire-and-brimstone dialogue. Acrobatic movements and cartwheels, for instance, were used to show the perils of the priest’s descent into Hell, while vigorous staff and hand movements represented fights with the demons that he found there. Spins, meanwhile, accumulated the rotational energy of the Big Dipper while 90 degree turns cleansed the Five Directions. (In an article published in Black Belt in 1964, William C.C. Hu speculated that the association of kung fu, a phrase meaning "hard work," with Chinese boxing was a corruption of kang fu, a Taoist phrase meaning "Big Dipper Talisman." While an appealing theory, there is, unfortunately no way of proving or disproving the connection.) On yin days priests began their movements facing north, while on yang days, they began facing south. Spirit possession was an ever-present danger. When it happened, the movements became extremely vigorous, or even violent. Of course, violence was rarely the stated end-state objective. After all, the priest was supposed to prefer internal cleansing to external spectacle. However, people being what they are, violence was an acknowledged risk, especially for people who were not used to handling their newly discovered occult powers.

    ***

    Besides Lagerwey and Hu, sources for that entry included

    Boyer, Carl B. A History of Mathematics, revised by Uta C. Merzbach (New York: John Wiley & Sons, 2nd edition, 1991)

    Joseph, George Ghevergese. The Crest of the Peacock: Non-European Roots of Mathematics (London: I.B. Tauris, 1991)

    Tyrey and Brinkman, "The Luo-Shu as Taiji Boxing’s Secret Inner-Sanctum Training Method," Journal of Asian Martial Arts, 5:2 (1996), 74-79

    ***

    As for the timing associated with death touch, something associated with African orishas is that different orishas appear at different times. Originally, the Chinese may have been trying to invoke various deities, too, and over time, this got lost, or at least left out when taught to non-believers.
    Last edited by Joseph Svinth; 6th January 2004 at 23:01.

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