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Thread: Tori Gates

  1. #16
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    Many thanks to Dr. Bodiford and Dr. Goldsbury for their detailed and well-sourced insights into this question.

    For what it's worth, here's a shot of one of the four gates to the Great Stupa @ Sanchi. It has an extra cross-beam, but nonetheless, the basic homology is there.

    There's also been an analysis of the Great Temple at Nara (which I can't lay my hands on just this second) showing that, although the construction is wood rather than stone, the proportional spacing of columns is precisely the same as a number of Greco-Indian precursors at the other end of the Silk Road.

    And taboos or no, there are a number of Japanese researchers who have started to look at the question of Silk Road Culture because of intriguing but not quite definitive correspondences like these.

    Anyone interested in a broader if somewaht tentative look at some of these underlying questions is welcome to look at my current draft of Part I of Tantric Actors on the World Stage: Curtain Call or Final Act.

    Part I takes a look at the dissemination of tantric iconography and associated cultural patterning along the silk road, particularly in the period 600-1000 CE. Part II, which is still too rough for words, will take a look at modern implications through the twin filters of HHDL's dissemination of the Kalachakra Tantra and the rather less happy consequences of Shoko Asahara's crypto-Buddhist Aum Shinri-kyo.


    Just drop me a pm and I'll send it along to anyone who wants to suffer through it.....


    Fred Little

  2. #17
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    Default Thank You !

    So far this thread has been very educational and quite fascinating. I wish to thank you all you gentlemen for sharing wealth of informations regarding the subject of the Torii.
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

  3. #18
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    Sorry, but I've never heard of these two deities--and I can't find them in any of my reference books. Are you perhaps thinking of Izanagi and Izanami
    Dr Friday,

    I have asked my Shinto priest about Kamurogi and Kamuromi, here`s what he came up with.

    According to Mr. Fukami, Kamurogi is the first male deity, while Kamuromi is the first female deity in the divine history. On the top of the divine world, there is the Supreme Creator, Su-no-kami, of course. As the dimension goes down toward this world, the Supreme Creator changes his form as a variety of deities, angels and divine spirits. When he takes a form of male and female deities for the first time, they are called Kamurogi-no-mikoto, Kamuromi-no-mikoto, respectively.

    yours
    Brian Carpenter

    Haruchi Umuchi Tsuzuchi !

  4. #19
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    Originally posted by Moriki

    I have asked my Shinto priest about Kamurogi and Kamuromi, here`s what he came up with.

    According to Mr. Fukami, Kamurogi is the first male deity, while Kamuromi is the first female deity in the divine history. On the top of the divine world, there is the Supreme Creator, Su-no-kami, of course. As the dimension goes down toward this world, the Supreme Creator changes his form as a variety of deities, angels and divine spirits. When he takes a form of male and female deities for the first time, they are called Kamurogi-no-mikoto, Kamuromi-no-mikoto, respectively.
    Interesting. I wonder where this story comes from, and how old it is. Anyone out there know?

    This account doesn't seem to be in either Nihon shoki or Kojiki--at least not in the opening chapters, where you'd expect to find it. Kojien describes "kamurogi" and "kamuromi" as general appelations for male and female kami. Hmmm . . .
    Karl Friday
    Dept. of History
    University of Georgia
    Athens, GA 30602

  5. #20
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    The names appear variously in Shoku-Nihongi (724) and Engishiki (927). My colleagues think there is some very definite Korean influence on the names.

    Best regards,
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

  6. #21
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    I am not an expert in this area, but, after some more discussion with my colleagues in the Asian Studies department here, I should correct my last post somewhat. The Korean influence on the names is far less certain than I was lead to believe, but what should be stressed is that the names do not appear in Morohashi's "Dai-Kanwa Jiten" and thus there would seem to be no direct Chinese influence. However, the names are written as ?_˜RŠò and ?_˜R”ü (the last characters are the same as in Izanagi and Izanami) with a variant of ?_˜RŠê (in Sanseido's Daijirin). As Dr Friday suggests, the names appear to be general names for the male and female deities.

    Best regards,
    Peter Goldsbury,
    Forum Administrator,
    Hiroshima, Japan

  7. #22
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    Thumbs up

    Dr. Friday, professor Goldsbury, Thank you so much for your excellent informative reply`s. As I take part in many divine rituals, I am trying to understand more and more about the history and actual philosophy of Shinto.I think E-Budo is blessed to have you guys on here with so much knoweledge.


    All the best
    Brian Carpenter

    Haruchi Umuchi Tsuzuchi !

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