Kokkar Kempo and SEALs

[Juan Perez]

Dear Sir,

Forgive me for I am a bit confused by your answer. But, it is possible that you wrote it in a hurry. But, off-hand, I get the impression that you might have not been in the US for very long. This is not a criticism - I myself came from abroad as a youngster and I can recognize when someone else has also as evidenced by their written words and the way in which they organize their thoughts. I get that very impression from your post. I am tempted to ask from where, if I am correct, but I would not have the temerity to ask for such personal information.

Disclaimer aside, I am a member of a special operations unit and have recently returned from a CENTCOM combat deployment. Whilst there I operated along side allied "Tier 1" special operations units in addition to having operated, in a joint capacity, with members of the US NSW component in country at the time. Today, in fact, I conducted a training airborne operation with members of our unit's Tier 1 element who themselves just recently returned from a CENTCOM deployment (different geographical area as mine - but just as dangerous) where they worked hand-in-hand with our Nation's primary counter-terrorist Tier 1 unit as well as coalition equivalents.

Why am I posting all this general information? Well, it so happens that my personal martial arts instructor is currently the official instructor to two of our Nation’s Tier 1 counter-terrorist assets. He also happens to operate a local martial arts school in the area. There is no "secret squirrel" treatment as to the content of his instruction. He does not talk about whom he teaches, or has instructed in the past. But, there is nothing "classified" as to the actual techniques thought and anything, or anyone, that claims that such a thing exists is exaggerating such claims. I hold the highest security clearances that a member of our units can hold and I have never seen such treatment of martial arts techniques in of themselves. Certainly, anything dealing with the vulnerability of certain systems (here I refer strictly to military protective systems such as body armor, for instance) in reference to certain techniques would be information that would be deemed "Secret" at best and should be considered as such. Certain techniques that are specifically applied in such a way as to push the envelope of the theater Rules of Engagement (ROE) in very specific "in extremis" situations might also be kept "close hold". But, in my personal experience, we guard information such as weapon systems performance parameters and specific tactics, techniques and procedures but not wrist locks and ankle breaks. Certainly, we've never given such exalted treatment to martial arts techniques. Also, I've never met a legitimate member of a Tier 1 unit who would in his right mind openly state "Hi, my name if John Doe and I was a member of ________ (insert which ever unit is Hollywood's "flavor of the month"). Whenever I read this, I find it down right suspicious. That is why I personally never divulge names, places and specific timeframes and whom exactly I work for, or worked for – just for OPSEC. Just my two cents (adjusted for inflation).

I write this for the uninformed as I’ve seen many claims of “I teach” such-and-such unit for the sake of instant credibility. The truth is that the best measure of credibility comes from practical application of what is being taught.
Lastly, I find one thing – among others – a bit odd regarding your post. Specifically, this quote:

“(by the way, this is not your real name. Any operator of Special Forces Command -Anti Terroris Unit-), know the rules for external identification), until year 2005.”

There are two issues to be discussed there, but I’ll only highlight one. To any actual “operator” working in any capacity within US SOCOM or JSOC the words “Special Forces Command” refer only to a specific unit within the US Army Special Operations Command (USASOC) and that unit would be US Army Special Forces Command (or USASFC). Also, there is a distinct difference between a government agency, or entity, working in an “anti-terrorist” capacity – something the US State Department and the DHS work at often – and a unit assigned “counter-terrorist” tasks. Your statements lead me to believe that either you were temporarily confused while you wrote your post, or that you are, in fact, not a former member of any SOF component. Not that it really matters, but that is the impression I get. Take care and God Bless.

[paolo_italy]

I write this for the uninformed as I’ve seen many claims of “I teach” such-and-such unit for the sake of instant credibility. The truth is that the best measure of credibility comes from practical application of what is being taught.

Dear Mr Perez,

Not always, sadly.
Some time ago I tried to organize a CQC and CQB training with a few SF's "teachers" from abroad for a counter-terrorism force of my country. These teachers are very good in their own specialty, indeed.
I submitted the CVs I received to the interested part and... surprise!
They verified and found that someone was nothing more than a liar or, better, someone bragging out alot...

Sooner or later, when those "teachers" expose themselves to real military teaching opportunities, the truth about their statements comes to light (unless they drastically shorten the "official" info with respect to that they tell around ).

Take care,

P.

[Kchef]

I live in the Va. Beach area and there happens to be a seal base out of Oceana. Those guys can do as they please on their off time. They just need to stay within a certain radius to their base just in case of an emergency deployment.

A few of them work as personal trainers for those that aren’t weak at heart and want to be pushed hard. My wife and one of her friends train with them from time to time when they are in from a deployment. They do stuff like run in the sand and swim a bunch in the ocean and run right at the oceans edge and they work with weights a bit. They have shown them a few techniques to use if they were attacked on how to get away but that wasn’t why they went to them.

Bottom line is that it is just a very good workout.

i've been thinking about joining them one Saturday but haven't gotten up the courage yet.

K. Allen

[Chuck.Gordon]

I work at the Grafenwoehr training complex (if you've been in the Army for long, you know about Graf and Hohenhells), which is the largest US and NATO training complex in Europe.

We get the SF guys from 1-10, the SEALs attached to US EUCOM, SF groups from other NATO (and lately the emerging Eastern European partner nations).

Most of 'em view H2H as a tertiary, at best, field of study.

Some of the US SF guys were here last week training, and I watched a couple of 'em practicing CQC in the gym where we train.

They were young, fit, highly motivated guys having big fun smacking each other around and rolling on the mat.

The discussion, however, wasn't so much, "If a bad guy pops out of a hooch, you take him down like this ..." as it was "if a guy in a bar pops you ..."

Great guys having fun, but not seriously training to take on the baddies in single, unarmed combat.

I remember a drill sergeant, many years ago, during bayonet training: "We gotta teach you this sh!t, but if you get to the point where you got to stick him with a bayonet, you're already f*cked."

All that said, I've talked to folks coming back rom the sandbox who DID wind up grappling with bad guys, mainly because they were trying to apprehend and capture rather than terminate said bad guys.

This is where the modern Army combatives (heavily BJJ-based) has paid off for some of 'em.

Lessons learned from these actions say that, much like police work in an urban US setting, apprehensions tend to wind up on the ground.

The 1-4 Infantry guys, based just south of here, have been pursuing the combatives program aggressively, partly as they are occasionally tapped to go to Afghanistan to pull security missions, and partly because the competetive aspects of it appeal to the younger guys and can be integrated into unit fitness programs easily. It's a way to get young troops (not to mention their NCO and officer leaders) to ACTUALLY practice the stuff. It's a Good Thing.

CQC has gained a great following in the military communities, and consequently, the claims of 'True SEAL/SF/Whatever' teachers has also skyrocketed. Hell, I could slap that label on my resume, if I wanted to. I've taught Army SF guys in my dojo ... however, claiming that would be misleading.

And as someone else pointed out, any individual unit can bring in a trainer for specific training. A noted aikido teacher, R. Heckler, spent some time doing just that and later wrote a book about his experiences. Does that make aikido an SF art? Nope. It means one unit did a taste test on aikido to see if it fit the needs or could be used as a combat multiplier.

So then, I know nothing of the Kokkar guys, but their affiliations should be easily trackable through VeriSEAL or other organizations.

Anytime any dojo/system/teacher plays the 'I was a SF martial arts teacher', I get leery. I know a few who have been, but by and large, most who so claim simply ain't what they say they are.

It's all marketing ... sez me.

[T.Whitman]

Hi everyone, I thouhgt I would chime in as to the validity of h2h being a 3rd or 4th string agenda. I am in Iraq and when my mission was door kicking and cqb we did quite a bit of h2h training; all the new army combatives stuff (bjj). We spent as much time practicing room clearing, we didn't train on say mine detection equipment. When my mission changed to route clearance we stopped all combatives training and trained on the mission at hand, mine clearing equipment; the army combatives/bjj is always a downtime option, but actual training revolves around the mission; this is how our *entire* military works. The spec war community will always have h2h but generally it takes a backseat to mission central stuff like language, explosives, or robot training whatever the mission calls for.

I am going to have to go with Chuck on the hype/marketing angle of sf teachers. By the way, I *grappel* with people all the time here on the streets when I search cars and trucks out after curfew or after an attack, the army combatives is absolutely worthless and completely the wrong mentality, I know this is a little inflamatory but I come from the same aiki - lawenforcement background as Mr. Gordon where physical psychology is the name of the game not the guard or mount.

I guess a teacher that puts 'seal combatives/top secret training' on his shingle has some serious bills to pay for. Or maybe a great fantasy to live.

[Howard Thiery]

Scott,
Thank you for contributing. I must say that
you write with a most interesting accent for a gentleman named MacFarland. It was very difficult to make out what you were trying to say due to the foreign syntax in your writing style . Can anyone perhaps paraphrase the points he was making relative to this discussion?

HJT

[Juan Perez]

Scott,
Thank you for contributing. I must say that
you write with a most interesting accent for a gentleman named MacFarland. It was very difficult to make out what you were trying to say due to the foreign syntax in your writing style . Can anyone perhaps paraphrase the points he was making relative to this discussion?

HJT

I can answer this one real quickly. Although I was very "civil" to Mr. MacFarland in my response to him, it is fairly obvious that he is a "poser" and does not have a single special operations bone in his body. Today I spent time talking to my team mates in my unit about our recent deployment in Afghanistan. A team sergeant who is a dear friend of mine suffered a fractured femur as a result of an IED attack he barely survived. My other team mate was not as lucky; he bored the brunt of the IED. He's gone. I lost four other team mates in another IED attack where the vehicle blew up about 30 feet from me. That one initiated a five and a half hour firefight were we literally handed the bad guys their behinds - just the twenty-four of us against the hundred and twenty, or so, of them (estimates are as low as 80 and as high as 150). A good friend of mine, another team leader, barely avoided getting hit by an RPG round two weeks ago. Unfortunately, another team leader behind his position lost his right eye and right hand and our CCT lost his life. That's why posers piss me off. They don't have what it takes but insert their BS opinion every time they get an opportunity. Most of these posers have serious low self-esteem and psychological problems and are not worth much discussion, so that's all I have to say about Mr. MacFarland. OK, my rant is over.

Anyway, every year we have to re-certify on Advanced Urban Combat in a course called SFAUCC. When performing room clearing, we always encounter some "bad guy" with full kit protection who tries to tie up the "Number 1" man near the "fatal funnel". We quickly learn that small circular movements and leverage - combined with your buddy's secondary weapon or, ASP baton - were the best answer. In both Afghanistan and Iraq, the missions we have been assigned always involve contact within restricted spaces at some time or another. As such, we have seen the need to emphasize hand-to-hand in this respect; sometimes to control the assailant; other times to simply put a bullet in him. It all depends.

[George Kohler]

I can answer this one real quickly. Although I was very "civil" to Mr. MacFarland in my response to him, it is fairly obvious that he is a "poser" and does not have a single special operations bone in his body.

One thing that I hate is someone who claims to be a special operations soldier (Ranger, Special Forces, SEAL, Delta, PJ, CCT, ect.) but never was one. I banned this person from participating on E-Budo. BTW, this guy's IP address is from Argentina.