Citizen Spies

[mews]

Hey, by the way, what's wrong with "Ice Cream" in "A Perfect Day for Ice Cream?"

---

depends:

pushing sugar upon the obese and pre-diabetic children of the land

oppression of the lactose-intolerant, who must make do with soy-substitutes.

offending those who hate ice cream

exploitation of animals, in factory-farming of milk cows

i'm sure we can come up with more.

mew

[Dom C]

Originally posted by Chuck

I'm sure Aaron will come up with an even better proposal, since I happen to think he's one of the most intelligent individuals it's ever been my privilege to meet, but in the meantime, I'll take a crack at it.

ok ,I'm sure he's a great guy. And thanks for taking a crack at it.
It seems like so many people get caught up whining about how much everything sucks ,rather than trying to find solutions that will make things better.

Continue stringent immigration security, and continue to follow up on reliable leads from captured terrorists and from RELIABLE INFORMANTS. Purge all information from informants not found to be reliable.

ok,but dont you think the intelligence community is trying its hardest to find these RELIABLE INFORMANTS? Do you think they believe anything that anyone tells them? Of course there is a filtering process that takes place. This is tricky,but i agree with you it is very important,and I'm sure steps are being taken to insure more quality information.

COnduct investigation of claims in a manner which does not place future possible sources of information in a position of not wanting to cooperate (there was an excellent article in the NY Times the other day about how domestic intelligence has completely shot itself in the foot with all of the arrests and detentions earlier in the campaign, as so many arabs who might one day be valuable sources of information suffered humiliation, intimidation, and damage to their reputations as a result of the roundups and now want nothing to do with the FBI; many branch offices have gone so far as to issue sincere and abject apologies in the hopes of improving relations).

I didnt read the article,but agree with the point you are making.

Finally, accept that if individuals are truly determined, we may not be able to stop them all.

From what I've heard/seen/read this is an accepted reality by everyone.Unless youve seen comments stating otherwise,which I'd be interested in reading.
I think its better in setting the standards HIGH when it comes to security.Setting lower standards is just going to get you less results.

Israel and the Mossad already engage in tactics that many consider despicable; they haven't come close to succeeding in stemming the tide.

true,but what is the point here?

Destroying our personal freedoms doesn't guarantee we will be safe from another attack, and it degrades and debases the greatest aspects of our country in the process.

agree. thanks for taking the time to respond.

[elder999]

First off-thanks Chuck! Geez, do I have you fooled!

Guess I owe you a beer……..

Secondly, Dom, my ideals are hardly utopian…they’re constitutional, perhaps.
They’re most definitely American.

I’ll start by asking you a couple of rhetorical questions:

Were we secure before 9-11? Are we more secure now?

In answer, no, and hell no!


No one was ever secure, except in their illusions.

I’ll point out here that some aspects of my professional life have direct bearing on these matters, and, while I’m not at liberty to talk about all of them-least of all on this forum-I an point out a few things from my viewpoint.

While some aspects of “Homeland Security,” and even the USA PATRIOT Act are acceptable measures, and even good things, most of them won’t do a damned thing to stop the proverbial “band of determined individuals, operating in secret,” from commiting acts of utter terror and chaos..

Homeland security has revitalized interest and implementation of the old Civil Defense model. A good thing, loooong overdue….

We’re educating emergency responders, the Centers for Disease Control, and law enforcement on acts of terror, terrorist groups and operations, weapons of mass destruction, and a host of other things that should have been done long ago.

Port security and law enforcement is being steadily increased, with enhanced methods of detection-a double edged sword.

As an example, long before 9-11, work was begun on the Biological Aerosol Sentry and Information System, or BASIS. I contributed a small part to BASIS, in that I engineered the kit that makes it adaptable to any EPA air quality monitoring station-by any idiot, I might add. It was first deployed at the past Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City by my good friends My opinion of BASIS –developed here at Los Alamos and deployed at the Olympics, is that it’s like a canary in a coal mine, except that when this canary sings, you’re dead.It will reduce the detection and identification of biological agents from days and weeks to hours, and , if they’re treatable, it might make a difference, but mostly,it’s not gonna make anyone safer or more secure, and we’re deploying it all over the country.

As another example, another area I work in is radiological detection. Some of you in New York and elsewhere, driving through toll booths or in port cities, might have seen cops or other personnel equipped with detectors on their belts. A good idea, but, for reasons that I won’t detail here, not necessarily one that’s going to prevent the entry of material or weapons into this country.

Wanna be secure, Dom? Move out of Seattle. Seattle is a port city, and they’re just sitting ducks, any way you look at it.GO the mountains, like me.......

The development of the USA PATRIOT Act has not resulted in the development of any substantive intelligence to date. It has not resulted in the arrests of any high level terrorist operatives to date. It has not resulted in anything but the infringement of civil rights-it hasn’t plugged any necessary holes, or made law enforcements job easier, and it’s already resulted in abuses like this:

http://www.freemikehawash.org/#facts

and, worse yet-as I’m not convinced that Hawash isn’t alQaeda, though if he is, he’s a bottom feeder like the rest of the “Portland Six”-this:

Sixty-two-year-old New York City criminal defense attorney Lynne Stewart is looking at 18 years in a federal prison. To help put her there, Attorney General John Ashcroft flew from Washington to New York to preside over a press conference announcing her indictment and that of three Arab men, charging them with "materially aiding terrorism."

Stewart was the defense trial attorney for Egyptian exile Sheik Abdel Rahman, who was convicted in 1995 for seditious conspiracy in connection with the first bombing of the World Trade Center. Lynne continued to represent him and visit him in prison.


Two years ago, when the Democrats held the presidency and before 9-1l, Stewart visited the Sheik in prison. The government spied on her visit with her client. It is this surveillance, in contravention of the attorney client privilege, upon which Republican John Ashcroft fashioned his belated indictment, this underscoring the political nature of her "crime."

You all need to wake up. What is being done to very basic civil liberties-our rights as human beings , not just Americans, is criminal.

I don’t have a plan to make us more secure. I’ve known all my life that there’s only one safe place on earth: the grave.

[Dom C]

Originally posted by elder999


I’ll start by asking you a couple of rhetorical questions:

Were we secure before 9-11? Are we more secure now?

In answer, no, and hell no!

i know they were rhetorical questions but....
Obviously we were not secure/properly prepared before 9-11,but do you honestly think that now we are just as lacking ? The hightened awareness of the masses has to count for something. Countries around the world are cracking down hard on terrorism. Strong attempts are being made to end the Israeli Palestinian problem.
These things dont help our security at all?

While some aspects of “Homeland Security,” and even the USA PATRIOT Act are acceptable measures, and even good things, most of them won’t do a damned thing to stop the proverbial “band of determined individuals, operating in secret,” from commiting acts of utter terror and chaos..

so your saying its pointless to even try ? No one is perfect, not even a "band of determined individuals operating in secret".

We’re educating emergency responders, the Centers for Disease Control, and law enforcement on acts of terror, terrorist groups and operations, weapons of mass destruction, and a host of other things that should have been done long ago.

Port security and law enforcement is being steadily increased, with enhanced methods of detection-a double edged sword.

Are you saying we are more prepared?

It will reduce the detection and identification of biological agents from days and weeks to hours, and , if they’re treatable, it might make a difference, but mostly,it’s not gonna make anyone safer or more secure, and we’re deploying it all over the country.

so, it is better than before.

Wanna be secure, Dom? Move out of Seattle. Seattle is a port city, and they’re just sitting ducks, any way you look at it.GO the mountains, like me.......

no thanks ,Seattles failing economy needs all the consumers it can get.

The development of the USA PATRIOT Act has not resulted in the development of any substantive intelligence to date. It has not resulted in the arrests of any high level terrorist operatives to date. It has not resulted in anything but the infringement of civil rights-it hasn’t plugged any necessary holes, or made law enforcements job easier, and it’s already resulted in abuses like this:

http://www.freemikehawash.org/#facts

Though I cant verify that The USA PATRIOT Act has not resulted in the development of any substantive intelligence I do agree that it is something that can easily be abused,and probably will be abused more.Which is why it should watched very carefully.

You all need to wake up. What is being done to very basic civil liberties-our rights as human beings , not just Americans, is criminal.

I don’t have a plan to make us more secure. I’ve known all my life that there’s only one safe place on earth: the grave.

thanks for the response,interesting points,though it would be nice to hear some alternatives to the measures being taken.

[elder999]

Originally posted by Dom C


thanks for the response,interesting points,though it would be nice to hear some alternatives to the measures being taken.

First off, let's repeal the USA PATRIOT Act.
There are no real alternatives, I guess yoou could take personal responsibility for your own security and:

Retire, move to the mountains, buy gold.....
die anyway.

The only safe place is the grave......

[TommyK]

Greetings,

Now you know why those in politics and power cry for gun control. Hitler got it in the early thirites and we know how that turned out. The purpose of the right to bear arms, is to prevent the government from doing what they are doing. The trouble is, current technology has made the issue irrelevant.

Regards,
TommyK

[elder999]

NEWARK, N.J. (Reuters) - Nearly two years after the Sept. 11 attacks, U.S. law enforcement faces some daunting challenges in engaging two groups seen as early sentinels in President Bush war on terrorism," experts say.

Despite creation of anti-terrorism task forces to coordinate efforts by federal, state and local agencies, authorities have yet to include more than a small fraction of rank-and-file police in the day-to-day search for suspects.

Broad new powers of interrogation and detention given to the Justice Department under the USA Patriot Act have also alienated some members of the public, especially the U.S. Muslim community, where experts say cooperation with authorities could be critical in preventing future attacks.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...hallenges_dc_1

[Tamdhu]

I learn nothing when we start foaming at the mouth - and believe me, I've done more than my fair share of mouth-foaming.

(sighs heavily) Yes, you're quite right. I was getting a bit snippy there. Apologies all around. I really will try now to be reasonable and...

Edit: That said, Bush is evil.

DOH!

Why I oughta...

[Charlie Kondek]

*Jumps on Tamdhu, rolls over table with him as fists fly*

BTW, that's pretty lame that they haven't done more to educate the rank n' file cops or better equip them for the job but, rather, increased interrogation and suspension powers for certain other intelligence agencies.

That's another thing that bugs me - why do we need so many frigging agencies doing the same thing?