UFC equals martial arts? Countering the argument and perception.

[Benjamin Peters]

1. I find anecdotally, that it's often argued by martial arts enthusiasts that 'no holds barred' (NHB) events/practitioners do not demonstrate true martial arts because of the nature of 'rules'.

2. Common examples of dismay toward NHB include (1) that real fights don't have rules, (2) NHB training limits training in multiple attacker scenarios, (3) that it's just barbaric, (4) techniques are limited (refer 1).

3. Do you feel that martial arts training in general is just as limiting in other dimensions? From the point of view of training, practice and technique repertoire, you could say that martial arts enforce rules suggesting distance and engagement, which maybe just as bad as those of NHB? That's if you see them as bad.....thoughts?

[Vapour]

http://www.badbreed.tv/absolutenm/an....asp?a=69&z=11

[Charlie Kondek]

Interesting! I love the NHB stuff myself, and think it is a good yardstick by which to measure martial arts.

1. I find anecdotally, that it's often argued by martial arts enthusiasts that 'no holds barred' (NHB) events/practitioners do not demonstrate true martial arts because of the nature of 'rules'.

There's always rules - except when there are no rules, and none of us wants to go there.

2. Common examples of dismay toward NHB include (1) that real fights don't have rules, (2) NHB training limits training in multiple attacker scenarios, (3) that it's just barbaric, (4) techniques are limited (refer 1).

Every time I hear criticisms of NHB like this I have to wonder what these people are smoking. While I'll admit that training for "the ring" or "the cage" could cause you to have some bad habits on "the street," I still maintain that it's the best and most realistic way to train. Multiple attackers? Don't fool yourself. Limited techniques? Good! KISS principle.

3. Do you feel that martial arts training in general is just as limiting in other dimensions? From the point of view of training, practice and technique repertoire, you could say that martial arts enforce rules suggesting distance and engagement, which maybe just as bad as those of NHB? That's if you see them as bad.....thoughts?

Yeah, like I said, there must always be rules in martial arts training of any kind. Limitations, absolutely necessary.

That said, I think its laughable when two guys are getting into it (usually over the internet) and one of them says, "All right, let's throw down." And the other says, "Okay, come over and throw a punch." And the first guy says, "No, I meant IN THE CAGE. I'll give you ten weeks training, and then we'll see whot he bad-ass is!"

[kage110]

Somewhat related conversation on another forum...


www.budo-forum.org.uk/viewforum.php?f=19



....hopefully that works

I'd just like to point out that everything has rules.

Everyone bangs on about "the street" or "real-life encounters" but there are rules there too. The moment you consider the legal or physical consequences of an altercation, you are imposing rules on yourself. Your opponent(s) will also have a set of 'rules' that govern their behaviour. You might not know what they are, they might not do you any favours, but they are there.

THere are plenty of very good reasons for studying a MA apart from learning to fight - but if you do want to learn to fight, you need to adopt some of the training methodology of combat sports. And of all combat sports, MMA has the least restrictions on technique - and covers the most ranges.

Cheers,

Mike

PS: Thanks for that clip, Hajime. Ouch. And to think I was nearly dumped on my head drilling ura-nage last night too... Scary.

[CEB]

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
...I still maintain that it's the best and most realistic way to train. Multiple attackers? Don't fool yourself. Limited techniques? Good! KISS principle. ...

Other guys have made this point and I agree with them. MMA events allow more Karate techniques than are allowed in any karate tournament and allow more Judo techniques than are allowed in any Judo tournament. I see a lot of fights happen on the weekends. What I've seen in the UFC comes closer to real fighting than anything else I've ever seen.

I've heard quite a few karate people over the years make remarks about the poor quality of the fights they have witnessed. Karate-ka seem to like to point to how fighters end up 'rolling around on the ground'. I think MMA has done a lot to educate more classically minded martial arts some of the realities that exist in the world. Like when you wind up with someone on top off you need to hold them as close in tight as possible in order to try to minimize the effectiveness of their strikes. Hopefully you can catch their balance off enough to roll over onto the top position and create a striking gap. Hence you start to understand some other reasons you see people rolling on the ground in parking lots and pubs.

[CEB]

Great post Mr. Williams.

[drDalek]

We had a few episodes of IFC (International Fight Club) down here a couple of months ago.

I have never seen such a sorry group of "Martial Artists", all of them claim to have X number of years doing martial art X and yet in the ring. They do these bjj tackles on each other and then its a bit of wriggling and wrestling and punching each other until someone gives up.

I have had more brutal fights with my brother before I even started doing MA.

If you claim to have 15 years of shaolin kung-fu atleast have the courtesy to take a kung-fu stance before charging in for the inevitable bjj-alike takedown tackle.

[TenguAteMyPuppy]

I like that backyard wrestling stuff. Anyone seen that video? Looks like far more fun than NHB. You get the bonus of training with weapons of opportunity!

Originally posted by drDalek
I have never seen such a sorry group of "Martial Artists", all of them claim to have X number of years doing martial art X and yet in the ring. They do these bjj tackles on each other and then its a bit of wriggling and wrestling and punching each other until someone gives up.

If you claim to have 15 years of shaolin kung-fu atleast have the courtesy to take a kung-fu stance before charging in for the inevitable bjj-alike takedown tackle.

Are you serious?

Leaving aside the fact that fights do not, ever, look like the movies or paired kata demonstrations...
Leaving aside the fact that stances (kung-fu or otherwise) are largely training (rather than combat) tools...
Leaving aside the fact that amateur (or even regional pro) competition will hardly show up the most awesome technique, even in karate, or judo, or shodokan aikido...
Leaving aside the fact that a double-leg takedown into ground-and-pound is just about the most effective basic fight strategy around...

Leaving all that aside, have you ever paused to consider that there is just as much skill (and to the knowing eye, beauty) in a well executed takedown and efficient newaza as there is in the fanciest trad MA technique?
Have you paused to consider that those guys are going in there and fighting full contact, with all the courage and 'martial spirit' that involves?
Have you paused to consider that some techniques might actually be more effective than others, and that they might not look like your preconceived notions about martial arts?

I really don't want to sound like a refugee from the Underground here. I have tons of respect for traditional martial arts - but honestly, your post sounded as ignorant as if I had said "all that aikido stuff is rubbish, they just leap around for each other like dancers, that would never work in real life" (which I don't believe, btw).

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I really thought that 10 years on from the start of the MMA revolution, attitudes had started to change. You don't have to like MMA, but please respect it.
Rant over.

Cheers,

Mike

[Charlie Kondek]

Nice posts, Mike. You, too, Ed.

Something I'm wondering: do you think some MMA fighters or teachers or coaches are frauds? I've seen what appear to be some hastily slapped-together curriculums for NHB fighters that are TOO simple. Grappling and fisticuffs should be simple, but there's an elegance in that simplicity, and it is usually informed by extensive knowledge of TMA and western combat sport. In other words, I think there are a number of people who claim to be grapplers that didn't go the BJJ, judo, wrestling route, but only know a few takedowns and reversals. I guess the truth comes out on the mat, though...

Frauds might be too strong a word...

But MMA is a young sport (especially in Europe), and there seem to be vale tudo gyms popping up all over the place - the talent pool is still not that great, and a lot of instructors must logically be pretty inexperienced.

In theory, the competitive nature of MMA should weed out the less talented (you can judge gymns/instructors by their fight record). What does concern me slightly is that many people are going straight into fighting pro (or semi pro) without sufficient training or experience. What the sport really needs is a good base of amateur tournaments to build fighters up, and feed that experience back into the teaching.

Luckily there is just such an event at the end of July about 10 minutes walk from my house. Still debating whether to enter or not (I'm 35, and am very confident. Confident that I'll get a total pounding! )

Cheers,

Mike (Fred Ettish Wannabe)

[drDalek]

Originally posted by Mike Williams

Leaving aside the fact that fights do not, ever, look like the movies or paired kata demonstrations...
Leaving aside the fact that stances (kung-fu or otherwise) are largely training (rather than combat) tools...
Leaving aside the fact that amateur (or even regional pro) competition will hardly show up the most awesome technique, even in karate, or judo, or shodokan aikido...
Leaving aside the fact that a double-leg takedown into ground-and-pound is just about the most effective basic fight strategy around...

I dont doubt that you know much more about mixed MAs and "NHB" style fighting than me, its just that after the 3rd or 5th match where both guys claim to do TKD and you never see either of them throw a punch or a kick, you start to feel a little cheated and even bored.

I dont moan about the guys that claim to do MMA or even "Grappling", infact I expect takedowns and newaza from them, but a TKD or Thai boxing guy that does not punch or kick? Realy now.

Then again, maybe IFC just sucks and UFC does not.

[hector gomez]

Great topic and some good points of views.I think that even with the rules that are presented in the sport of MMA,I find it hard to believe how some serious martial artist do not even consider learning from some of the lessons that are learned in the MMA rings.

There are physical realities that happen in the ring that will and can definitely transfer over into a real fight,ofcourse not all realities are adressed in the rings but so many of the dynamics are so similar,that for any serious practicioner not taking full advantage of the wealth of information,would seem silly.

Talking about realities,some karate,tkd,kungfu,practicioners might believe that they can continue fighting for 5 minutes upright in a kick&punch situation,well if you happen not to end it quickly you can and will be faced with the realities of a grappling type scenario,so if you are not adressing the issue you will be short changing yourself.


Ofcourse the only reason why there would even be a debate as to wether this is true or not is because alot of practicioners will not put themselves in a situation to find out if these physical realities are possible or not.How many karate,tkd,kung fu schools allow tackling to take place as part of their training routine?

That is something that a MMA practicioner understands about when dealing with the physical realities of a fight and that is.....the different variables that can and will happen in a real fight,the streets are no different in the sense that there are too many variables and one must be ready for anything.


Hector Gomez

[CEB]

Originally posted by Mike Williams
...
But MMA is a young sport (especially in Europe), and there seem to be vale tudo gyms popping up all over the place - the talent pool is still not that great, and a lot of instructors must logically be pretty inexperienced.
....

Is MMA something that should only be acquired but never taught? Or has it reached a level of maturity that gyms are available that can teach MMA as a complete method?


I mean is there still an advantage for people to acquire grappling skills from a school that teaches only grappling and to learn striking methods from striking specialist or has the synthesis various fighting methods reached a point of maturity where it is best to go to a one stop that teaches all?