Marijuana and it's usage... ignore this thread!

[adroitjimon]

It has been a while since I have posted any thing here but I am
curious to see what the perception is towards controlled
substances and their use...

As good budo we must uphold the laws of the land,

or atleast that's what most try and project.I am not here to
point fingers or expose anyone but as a responsible adult
I should hope that, well ,if one goes about knocking the hell
out of another and allows another the opportunity to knock
the said hell out of them. why then should we limit our
realities to the norm? after all how normal is it to get a black
eye and thank the giver for the brilliant shiner you just
recieved.

The reason I wrote this thread is to say I get there when
I can and have discovered many of you do as well but hide it
because of hipocrosies that overwhelm your lives.
and if you don't well, that is your business.
just don't be afraid to admit it if you do because,afterall
preservation of self is the one true reason we are a part of
the martial arts world .

Meditate on this subject before you reply, the battle is
all in your mind.read...

[TenguAteMyPuppy]

<-- Why is that thing so inadvertently funny?!

My opinion, for whatever it's worth: This world has a lot more to worry about than some kid tripping balls on some mushrooms, or a few hits of acid.

The danger of drugs is equal to their economic value. I've seen it with my own two eyes. The DEA is a virtual marketing commission on them. Every raid that's conducted ups the price, and the danger of being involved. Every suitcase full of heroin that makes it through lowers the price, and the associated risk of being involved with your local heroin dealers, or fiending junkies. You can love or hate drugs, but there are certain undeniable facts in drug economics, and that's one of them.

I'm not one to oppose legalization, mainly on the grounds what you do in your own time is your own choice. Also, the whole idea that the government "knows what's best" for us is sickening, and based in so much moral BS, it's makes my head spin if I think about it too long. However, there's a few valid consequences to legalization worth considering. The government, or the DEA, would be putting a lot of people out of work if it went around legalizing or decriminalizing drugs. I'm not just talking about a handful of narcs either. Think about the Colombian coca farmers! FARC and the AUC would also lose substantial profits. Ah, and don't forget about the Afghani opium crops. Some of the worlds biggest exports and imports (cocaine, heroin, and grass) would lose immense value, as they're forced, in a paradoxically uncoerced manner, to take a legitimate business route. There is no doubt in my mind it has the potential to be an economic disaster.

I guess the bottom line is that people will always have their demands, and a keen businessman will always be there to meet those demands. No government agency, or man made law, is going to be very effective in stopping those demands either.

[Amos Smith]

I think that there is a public face and a private face we all show to the world, just as a matter of good manners. I also think that as Budoka, it is incumbant upon us to reflect well on our art and our group. This should cover everything from good manners, to timeliness, to speeding, to underage drinking, to murder...you name it. If it reflects well on your Sensei, it is fine for the "public face".

As to the private face...thats your business, I'd prefer you kept it to yourself.

Amos

[adroitjimon]

I appreciate these things I have read regarding this thread.
but what I get from them is still absolutely nothing ,my objective
entirely. just know this if you meet me in a match I will be
obeying the law and rules.

which brings me to another

hypothetical scenario...
Let's say we were both at a match and
lets say you were high on some kind of stimulant such as PCP,
cocaine,or methanphetamene(sic?),something like that which may
give you a slight edge over me who is completely straight and
have taken precautions to ensure such courses of action.

according to these responses it doesn't matter so long as we keep
it to our selves which is not at all within the keeping of the
true budoka spirit...How should one handle this scenario if
subjected to it? I am just curious as to what others have done
in simillar experiences... should you a. decline b. decline
c. decline or d. just simply ask for a refund on the grounds of
unsportsman like conduct abd demand that the said offender be
screened for substance use. or is martiual arts really just a
place where unscrupulous people are allowed to congregate in
masses with the unwittingly ignorant others?
actuality it is emensely deplorable to say the least.
the same sort of conduct goes on in many aspects of human culture
but no one has the testicular fortitude to speek out against it.

Why?

[TenguAteMyPuppy]

I appreciate these things I have read regarding this thread.
but what I get from them is still absolutely nothing ,my objective
entirely.

I apologize. I was pretty tired (as usual) when I wrote my reply.

hypothetical scenario...
Let's say we were both at a match and
lets say you were high on some kind of stimulant such as PCP,
cocaine,or methanphetamene(sic?),something like that which may
give you a slight edge over me who is completely straight and
have taken precautions to ensure such courses of action.

Well, first off, PCP is not a stimulant. Far from it, in fact. What most people do not understand about PCP is that it is a dissocative, and not a stimulant. Dissociatives are known to cause "out of body" experiences. This basically means someone tripping on PCP will not move the entire length of their trip. Moving on PCP is quite a task. It makes you feel very heavy. Now, here's the thing. The PCP experience is usually quite euphoric. There is a little something that happens to a user of PCP every so often though. Not as often as the media would have you believe, but maybe 1 out of 1000. It's called "psychosis." There is a "bad trip" which means that you did not particularly enjoy the experience, and then there is psychosis. Psychosis is when you start thinking you have to drill a hole in your head to let the aliens out. This is aided by PCP's anesthetic qualities (which come with all dissociatives). That is, you do not feel any pain. Most people are rational enough not to abuse such a thing, but those in the midst of a psychotic episode are not.

Ok, now that we've cleared up that little tangent, let me address your question head on.

I have never had a "confrontation" with people on methamphetamine. Reason being that meth is euphoric. Not something you particularly want to fight on. The people you want to worry about are the ones coming off meth. THEY can be a handful, and I have had a confrontation or two with people in such a state. The come down from uppers is not in any way pleasant, but they will not have an "edge" in the fight. These drugs do not increase your competitive ability. Even Dextromethorphan (another dissociative, though not nearly as powerful as PCP ...and also a widely used, over the counter, cough supressant) will rob a person of coordination and the ability to use many basic principles learned. On the bright side, "robo-boxing" can be a lot of fun to watch!

according to these responses it doesn't matter so long as we keep
it to our selves which is not at all within the keeping of the
true budoka spirit...How should one handle this scenario if
subjected to it?

Well, you're not exactly "keeping it to yourself" if you get into the ring on drugs, now are you?

I am just curious as to what others have done
in simillar experiences... should you a. decline b. decline
c. decline or d. just simply ask for a refund on the grounds of
unsportsman like conduct abd demand that the said offender be
screened for substance use.

Look, if you ever face someone on drugs, don't expect to even know it. Also, if you THINK your opponent is on drugs, I recommend going for nerve bundles. Works quite well.

or is martiual arts really just a
place where unscrupulous people are allowed to congregate in
masses with the unwittingly ignorant others?

In any case, I wouldn't worry about it. Rest assured that the "preformance enhancing drug" is a myth... except maybe steroids. You might worry about those...

[adroitjimon]

wow very in formative ,,, I like the way it was handled
so much skill... what a brilliant blackbelt verbaljikata...

[TenguAteMyPuppy]

Meh... It's what I grew up around. Too much experience in too few years.

[wendy ongaro]

Meh... It's what I grew up around. Too much experience in too few years.

knowing too much too young...it's called bad wisdom.

the big problems with working with potentially violent people on or withdrawing from drugs (including alcohol) is that:

1. they may be hallucinating
2. many people develop paranoid delusions when withdrawing
3. many people who are already mentally ill self-medicate with street drugs, plus, use street drugs long enough, and you will be mentally ill regardless of where you started from.
4. the combination of all these factors is disinhibiting, resulting in someone being completely unreasonable, who under normal circumstances might be fairly reasonable.

This is the danger of dealing in a confrontational situation with someone on drugs. As was once stated by one of my favorite ER nurses- "never waste your time trying to reason with children or crazy people."

[TenguAteMyPuppy]

it's called bad wisdom.

What do you mean by "bad?" Useless? Incomplete? Or just something
you shouldn't have? Clarification, please.

This is the danger of dealing in a confrontational situation with someone on drugs. As was once stated by one of my favorite ER nurses- "never waste your time trying to reason with children or crazy people."

Well, consider that being brought into the ER on ANY drug is automatically going to produce a bad trip. If the person is already going through a harsh drug experience, a trip to the ER probably isn't going to help, unless there is a serious risk of the person having OD'ed, or causing harm to himself or others. Your best bet might just be to lock them in a closet for a couple hours.

[wendy ongaro]

Your best bet might just be to lock them in a closet for a couple hours.

I completely agree.

In terms of 'bad wisdom'- its an old saying that refers to the loss of innocence, i.e. growing up too quickly. People lose innocence when terrible things happen to them, and the idea is that if you go through terrible or inappropriate things at an inappropriate age (i.e. too young) you pay a higher price for that wisdom- i.e. bad wisdom. It also implies that the wisdom gained is not balanced, because it came about solely by experiencing the dark side of life without experiencing the joyful side, nor having the maturity to use that dark understanding of the world in a productive way. That's all I meant by it. you were discussing your loss of innocence as to the properties of different drugs, and it made me think of 'bad wisdom'. No offense meant.

[TenguAteMyPuppy]

Right. I wouldn't call it a loss of innocence. It was usually loss of ego (something of an inside joke).

Generally speaking, innocence isn't a concept I really believe in, anyway. Too deeply rooted in various other philosophical concepts I don't carry a lot of respect for, but enough of that. I think the main questions have been answered here.

[Martin Adil-Smi]

My own orientation is that I am completely against dope, apart from it use in medical circumstances.

I have witnessed the effect on my family when a wayward uncle took a nose dive after years of cocasine abuse. He started off smoking dope in his teens. My family damn near imploded.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying ALL dope smokers will become career criminals, or move on to anything harder... it is just that is my experience.

Personally, I don't smoke dope or tobacco. I'm weening caffeeine and alcohol out of my diet as well. Apart from physical affects, I believe that the psychological affects are too great to offset against the "fix".

[kage110]

My own orientation is that I am completely against dope, apart from it use in medical circumstances.

I have witnessed the effect on my family when a wayward uncle took a nose dive after years of cocasine abuse. He started off smoking dope in his teens. My family damn near imploded.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying ALL dope smokers will become career criminals, or move on to anything harder... it is just that is my experience.

Personally, I don't smoke dope or tobacco. I'm weening caffeeine and alcohol out of my diet as well. Apart from physical affects, I believe that the psychological affects are too great to offset against the "fix".

Saying this as someone who drinks alcohol infrequently and rarely to excess, doesn't smoke and has never taken any drugs at all...

Martin,

What was the problem exactly? Was it the uncle taking the drugs? Was it the family's reaction to him taking drugs? Was it the situation that the uncle was in before/during/after he took the drugs (talking in terms of years here not minutes)? Was it the situation the family was in that caused the uncle to take the drugs?

I don't actually want answers to these questions, that is your private business and none of mine. My point is that drugs themselves are not necessarily the problem but the way in which the people around the issue react to them.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that drugs are good for you because they aren't, but drugs themselves are not the whole problem. Many addicts who OD or contract AIDS, Hepatitis B or some other disease or get involved in crime do so not because the drug itself kills them but because of the lifestyle they are forced to adopt once drug dependency sets in. Then, of course there is the issue of the lifestyle that people are in that results in them becoming drug dependant in the first place.

I am afraid that there is an awful lot of fear and misinformation around about the drug issue and the emphasis (in countries like the USA and UK) on the drug enforcement angle is doomed to failure as there will still be a ready market for those that want to abuse drugs until (if ever) the social issues are addressed.

[wendy ongaro]

People who are prone to addiction with drugs are addicted to chaos. They like chaos. They cannot live the boring, mundane, go to work, do the daily grind, come home, kiss your wife, eat dinner, pay your mortgage, go to bed, get up the next day and do it again. Even after addicts clean up, they reproduce this addiction in other areas of their lives.

It's interesting because before I started working in psychiatry with people who were addicted to something, I used to be pro legalization. Now, I am anything but (with the exception of marijuana, which, IMHO is not as benign as pro legalization people would like to tell you it is, but it is still better than alcohol).

On the east coast, where I trained, the average waiting list (1999-2001) for getting someone into rehab was 4-6 months. So, if a heroine addict walks into my exam room today, wanting to come clean, I have to say "sorry. i'll put you on the list and they'll call you in four months". FOR TEENAGE ADDICTS, BECAUSE OF THE SHORTAGE IN TREATMENT PROGRAMS THAT WILL ACCEPT MINORS, THE WAITING LIST CAN BE UP TO A YEAR. That's just plain wrong. Out here in Wyoming, it is better because there are fewer people to compete for each program.

This is the number one problem with our strategy with the war on drugs. Period. We can't get people into rehab when they are ready. By the time the slot opens, they have relapsed and are either dead, have hit the road, or lost the interest to address their addiction.

My main question to legalizing drugs is who is going to sell them if the dealers don't? The government? That's a little weird. If so, who is the government going to push them too?

I never believed in demons until I worked with people with drug addiction. Now, I know better. When someone craves a drug, they will sacrifice their health, their family, their freedom, their lives for the next high. If killing someone would get them the drug, many of them would do it. They dump their kids, they pimp out their kids, they starve their kids so they can have the money for the drugs. They burn their brains out and become nothing but an empty shell programmed to seek the drug of choice. drug addiction is the closest thing to a biblical demon I have ever seen.

I don't like the war on drugs. It's not working. I don't have a good alternative other than getting better access to rehab services. But after seeing what I've seen, I am really leary of total legalization.

[TenguAteMyPuppy]

People who are prone to addiction with drugs are addicted to chaos. They like chaos. They cannot live the boring, mundane, go to work, do the daily grind, come home, kiss your wife, eat dinner, pay your mortgage, go to bed, get up the next day and do it again. Even after addicts clean up, they reproduce this addiction in other areas of their lives.

Hmmm, this is a bit too broad for me to fully accept. Many times, it's merely escaping reality. Other times, it is just out of plain boredom. Sometimes there's an entirely legitimate use. I do not advocate the use of ANY drug(s), even alcohol or tobacco, but many demonized chemicals (such as LSD and MDMA) are not half as dangerous as they're made out to be, and do have a very real possibility to enhance people's lives, ideas, culture, etc. with RESPONSIBLE use.

I am going to give the links to MAPS, because I am not so sure I fully agree with the above (or what follows below) myself, but I'm going to run with a pro-legalization argument, for this discussion anyway (hey, it's how I work).

http://www.maps.org

It's interesting because before I started working in psychiatry with people who were addicted to something, I used to be pro legalization. Now, I am anything but (with the exception of marijuana, which, IMHO is not as benign as pro legalization people would like to tell you it is, but it is still better than alcohol).

Yeah, junkies and tweakers are truly some of the lowest of the low. However, consider that drug prohibition has literally created more problems (and addicts) than it has ever solved (or helped). When heroin came about as a cough suppressant, it was not a problem. When cocaine came about for pain, it was not a problem. A number of opiate based medications, and medically approved amphetamines exist today with a relatively contained amount of incidents of abuse (besides, why go to all the trouble to get dull medical amphetamines when you can drive down a street and the meth dealers will come right up to your car and serve you like it was fast food?).

While I would not go so far as to assign any specific medical value to cocaine (although I do believe it has been somewhat demonized), heroin is another story. It is one of the most potent pain killers known to man (both physical and mental pain) and I cannot find any reason to deny it to the very terminally ill (as was done around the turn of the century, with an impressive degree of relative success) who might request something stronger than whatever they are on. Sometimes relieving the physical pain of one person can relieve a lot of emotional pain of their family as well. In all truth, I'd rather see grandma nodded than in terribly agonizing pain.

Excuse me, that must be my better half speaking.

On the east coast, where I trained, the average waiting list (1999-2001) for getting someone into rehab was 4-6 months. So, if a heroine addict walks into my exam room today, wanting to come clean, I have to say "sorry. i'll put you on the list and they'll call you in four months". FOR TEENAGE ADDICTS, BECAUSE OF THE SHORTAGE IN TREATMENT PROGRAMS THAT WILL ACCEPT MINORS, THE WAITING LIST CAN BE UP TO A YEAR. That's just plain wrong. Out here in Wyoming, it is better because there are fewer people to compete for each program.

Rehabs are all screwed up anyway. Most of them are filled up with people that are not really addicted ("oh, little Billy was addicted to the marijuana, so we sent him to rehab." -an all too often true example. There is no one on god's green earth addicted to marijuana and any one who says they are is probably self-medicating in actuality and needs psychological help, or maybe a change in lifestyles, but not drug rehab), or so addicted that the idea of "complete drug abstinence" is a joke. You cannot take someone who has been doing heroin for 40 years (seriously, I met a guy who has. Acquaintance of my brother), or even five for that matter, and say "Ok, well, no heroin, three doses of methadone, and (or) Jesus! You're good to go!" It's just not that simple.

My main question to legalizing drugs is who is going to sell them if the dealers don't? The government? That's a little weird. If so, who is the government going to push them too?

Heh, that's part of the legalization argument. Their high demand, a result partially of their illegal status, is then negligible... if they're legal. Who will sell them? I honestly don't know. Maybe no one? Maybe Philip Morris (excuse me, Altira Group)? God, actually, let's hope not. In fact, here's an idea I've been playing with. In the legislation which legalizes drugs, let's also ensure their safety by not allowing those selling them to toy with them. Potentially an open door to exploit the addictive nature of some of the harder ones. In fact, why not give tax breaks, government incentives and grants to those companies or individuals who make them less addictive, and less harmful (assuming they were legal for sale and consumption)? In their current state, most mainstream illegal drugs are "safe" (that is, you won't immediately die from their use) if you are not a moron... er... I mean if you're responsible. It would be best to keep it that way, if they were ever legalized.

I never believed in demons until I worked with people with drug addiction. Now, I know better. When someone craves a drug, they will sacrifice their health, their family, their freedom, their lives for the next high. If killing someone would get them the drug, many of them would do it. They dump their kids, they pimp out their kids, they starve their kids so they can have the money for the drugs. They burn their brains out and become nothing but an empty shell programmed to seek the drug of choice. drug addiction is the closest thing to a biblical demon I have ever seen.

I am of the firm belief that addiction is a choice an individual makes, and is rarely made for him or her by their use of drugs. Whether it's ultimately conscious or subconscious, I am not sure. I am pretty sure that many (not all, but many) junkies are actually junkies well before they stick that needle in their arm though. They might be attracted to the "allure" of being an addict, or they might just have a generally f$#ked up life (or brain, or both). In any case, the drug war has done nothing to help these people. It's undeniably hurt them more than anything. The mythical drug kingpin's best friend is the DEA. Hell, where would his market be if not for drug prohibition? Europe? Yeah right!

I don't like the war on drugs. It's not working. I don't have a good alternative other than getting better access to rehab services. But after seeing what I've seen, I am really leary of total legalization.

Rightfully so, on that last part. There are a lot of alternatives. I've reviewed the facts, both on paper, and with my own two eyes. I am getting to the point where I am saying "anything is better than criminalizing what ultimately comes down to personal choice." So, hey, why not legalize it all? Your average addict is only mildly worse than your average alcoholic. A few reasons that you will probably never see an alcoholic out stealing for booze is that alcohol is widely available at relatively controlled prices, it's use is not (highly) socially ostracized, and it's consumption carries no real criminal punishment. Oh, sure, alcoholics are violent, annoying, and neglectful (so are most addicts)... but hell, you take a lot of stress away when you legalize something and basically say, for example, "ok, cocaine is now legal and socially acceptable for occasional use" (coincidentally, the number of people who drink on a social basis and become alcoholics, and the number of people who use cocaine on a social basis and become cokeheads, is probably damn near parallel. I can't verify it on paper, but consider it a theory). If other drugs, even the hard ones, were the same way, we might just be a little better off.

Or worse. I don't really know.