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Thread: Dueling ?????

  1. #16
    A. M. Jauregui Guest

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    ‹S?¬Žè‚Æ

    Thanks Ren.

  2. #17
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    Lightbulb Well sorta.......

    Dear Kevek:

    "......On some perverse days, I wish that I could challenge a dojo to a duel of sorts. Just to see if Im any good. Some times I wish silently to myself that some Ronin would come in with his Shinai and say "I want to challenge your school" kind of like in the old days. But I quickly realize that I watch far to many black and white Japanese movies and I need to be responsible. But I will say, that once there was an fellow instructor who really bothered me. Pompas, course, and just a real jerk. And to him.. I wanted to say heres a Shinai.. Heres a mask.. Lets step on the floor and see who can do what. Why? Cause Im tired of your crap. And after this.. either Ill shut up. or you will....."

    I can only speak for myself, but a very similar thing did happen to me.

    In a school in which I train I elected not to learn the typical Kendo-esque type of Kumdo but rather focus on Kum-Bup in which the focus is much more on the use of the sword as a weapon. The philosophy is that the measure of character is what a person does with Power and learning to use a sword to injure or take life is a kind of power. Once one has that power the true training comes in being able to manage that power in ones' life well.

    Needless to say not all of the folks at the school subscribe to this and the eventual friction grew between folks who practiced the more sport oriented Kumdo and the more weapons-approach Kum Bup. I had an opportunity to use Kum Bup techniques in a match with a Kumdo person wearing armour and using a juk-to or bamboo sword. The results were that after a successful cut to the knee, a thrust to the throat and a strike to the back of the neck I was told I would either abide by the targets of Kumdo or not spar. I have not sparred in two years and have no interest in it.

    Now, interstingly enough I was able to purchase a book on HwaRang Kumdo about a year ago and was surprised to find that the author advocated the use of armour and juk-to in exactly the manner in which I had sparred. His position was that armour needs to be used so as to allow partners to safely execute the Kumdo equivalent of "one-step" or "three-step" sparring. The idea of limiting parters to simple striking with a stick at three limited targets apparently was a bit too contrived for the author. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  3. #18
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    Red face I was challenged!

    Hi All,
    I was recently challenged to a duel using bokuto with no armour.
    I have no idea who the challenger is as he uses a fake name on a hotmail account and refused to say who he was.
    Here's the original e-mail....for your amusement.

    Attention: Howard Quick!

    It has been brought to my attention that you practise a quasi form of
    Kenjitsu here in Melbourne, so-called 'Shinkendo'. Any attack on the purity
    of Kenjitsu is a blight on Japanese Swordsmanship the worldover. Therefore
    under the ancient Honour code of Bushido and in the Ronin tradition I
    challenge you to a bout at a private location, 'With No Spectators'. It
    being a matter of Honour! My time here in Melbourne being sporadic, I
    desire a hasty reply.

    Bout Requirements:

    Out door venue: location, day, date and time to be announced upon your
    reply:

    1) No body armour!

    2) Bokuto only!


    If you are nothing more than a humble suburbinite who teaches Kenjitsu to
    the Riff/Raff of suburbia and who's only interest in Japanese Fencing is as
    a commercial money maker, Then May I suggest you decline
    the Challenge and make no pretentions. The Gauntlet has been laid down, the
    crow has dropped its feather. Take up the gaulet and Reply, or admitt your
    cowdice and decline.
    May I remind you this is a once in a life time opportunity to prove your
    swordplay skills.


    Personal history:

    Schools and teachers:

    The Sun, The Moon, And The Stars and All nature, is all you need know.







    The Kenshi




    If anyone would like to ask this goose any questions....his e-mail address is
    eden1273@hotmail.com
    Best wishes

    Howard Quick

    Shinkendo Australia - Shibucho
    Senjutsu Ryu Jujitsu
    Kokusai Toyama Ryu Renmei

  4. #19
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    Lightbulb

    Dear Howard:

    Seems as though someone has watched just one-too-many martial arts movies, but, OK, lets take a look at this for a second.

    Option 1: You meet with the guy and you lose.

    That loss if we are staying with the idea of a duel means either significant injury or death. Either result is going to sorely cramp your lifestyle for the foreseeable future.

    Option 2: You meet with the guy and he loses.

    He will not admit that he was wrong and have a dozen excuses about why he didn't REALLY lose.

    Option 3: You don't meet the guy.

    He continues to bait you about your inadequacies as he sees them which is pretty much what he is doing now--- and could vary well do even if you did meet with him.

    Option 4: You meet the guy and the encounter becomes effectively a talk-fest.

    Talk is good, providing it resolves something. Traditionally the talking part of a duel was relegated to the Seconds. Still there is nothing to say that this guy wouldn't go back to wherever he came from and still bad-mouth from a distance.

    The fact is that people are going to do what they are going to do and there is really nothing you can do about it. If this person is someone with sociopathic tendencies he may most likely see nothing wrong with his behavior in which case you would be guilty of beating up on someone who, effectively, is handicapped. Who wants THAT on their conscience? FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  5. #20
    Bustillo, A. Guest

    Default Duels & injury

    Western fencing.

    As mentioned there was a protocol for fencers when dueling. On the occasion when both parties agreed beforehand that the duel didn't need to be to the death, the match could be stopped when 'first blood' was drawn. Meaning, the first person to inflict a cut or slash that drew blood would be declared the winner.
    And, there were many duels of this sort ending without serious injury.


    *Good seconds were crucial in duels.
    Last edited by Bustillo, A.; 9th July 2003 at 14:24.

  6. #21
    A. M. Jauregui Guest

    Default

    Every little stupid (which I am not going to go into) *duel* I had was basically on the spot and in a fairly controlled environment.. Howard I would be afraid that he might shoot you...

    Definitely take the high road.

  7. #22
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    Interesting thread.

    Howard, wow. What did you say to him? I would have wanted to just cut the fellow down, but this would be dangerous and reckless and illegal.

    Don't take this the wrong way, but ever time I hear some say thay are practicing freeform sword-fighting without resorting to kendo it seems like a reinvention of the wheel to me. I mean, this is exactly why kendo was developed. How can anyone improve on something that's now 200 years in the making, tried and tested? Kendo was developed exactly to give kenjutsu practitioners a method of sparring that didn't end in injury or death - in other words, until kendo came along and refined itself, people died or were injured trying to test themselves. And duels? There are accounts of a few fights in Hagakure, for example, they didn't end well.

    Be interested to see what Japan's "code duello" looked like. I think if you plugged "code duello" into a search engine you'd get detailed descriptions of how Europe's duellists conducted themselves...
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  8. #23
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    Default

    admitt your
    cowdice
    Howard! You have Cow Dice? You never let on that you had cow dice. I've been looking all over for some of those!

    Cheers,
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  9. #24
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    Default Not the same

    Ok #1, Howard
    I would be scared of this joker.If I were to respond to this with any type of agreement, I would tell him that I agree to this confrontation on two conditions. #1 there are witnesses from each camp. That is traditional. #2 Fukuro or regular Shinai as a meidum. This will eliminate the chance of debilitating injury. Bokken are a sure road to fatal or Maiming injury. There is no first blood with a bokken, unless its running out of your ears.
    And let me say that while I am not a huge shinkendo fan, I have respect for what you guys are doing. This person has little or no understanding of what it is that your are really trying to accomplish. And just due to the nature of your schools style, I would say that I believe most of your people to be fairly efficient in a confrontation style incident.

    #2 Charlie
    I dont mean to imply that we would like to reinvent the wheel. And yes at some point Kendo did emulate Kenjutsu. But that was quite some time ago. Originally Kendo utillized all the strikes one would find in a regular sword fight. But slowly it was regulated down to three target areas. So today Kendo is a sport. Probably the most fun I have ever had in any sport. But still a sport. I would call it a martial sport.
    Kenjutsu is however a Martial Art. It involves sword fighting in a kind of "anything goes" style. You can hit anywhere, and there are no points, you win or your lose. You can hit legs, you can hit the left side of your opponent. And a solid strike to the shoulder is just as good as a solid strike to the forarm. Its fun an at the same time its so challangeing. AND lastly its a test of your knowlage of the sword, mai, and timing. Think of it as chess to checkers. Checkers is fun. I still like to play it. But its limited. Strategy and tactics, yes it has them. But chess. Chess has so much more. Limiting, baiting, understanding your opponent. Much more indepth. they are both played on a board of the same design. And our freeform and kendo both use a shinai. But there is so much more to understand in one than the other.
    I would close by saying that Indeed I do not seek to reinvent the wheel. I seek to find that place that the wheel that was/is Kenjutsu has rolled to. We seek to expand our potential and understand our current limits in one strike of the sword.
    Keven Cecil
    Iaika
    Musu Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu
    www.whiteherondojo.net

  10. #25
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    Here is my take on Howard's challenge.

    He can't win. If he beats the guy, he will probably sue him for his injuries.

    Dueling in most places is illegal, so if it were reported that he had dueled with this guy, or, perhaps was even conspiring to duel, it might get him in trouble. The problem with this type of thing is this - you don't know who the person is, which is weird for them not to say, there won't be any witnesses, which is good and bad, and the person your fighting most likely doesn't understand anything about traditional "dueling protocol". It doesn't sound like he knows anything about real swordsmanship either.

    For example, a technique of pulling cuts prior to making contact with an opponent's body (tsumeru) seems to have been an understood practice when engaged in a challenge-bout (not vendetta) that didn't include the use of bogu. This is also called "sun-dome" (stopping within an inch). It is not necessary - especially these days - to jack someone up just to see who is better. If you did this historically, the students and/or family and friends of the loser would hunt you down. This would probably happen now (I'd be the first in line). Some challenges of course got out of hand in the old days, which is why it was a good idea to have witnesses around to back up your story.

    Anyway, like I say, a challenge such as this is a clear no-win situation. Someone will surely get hurt, and that would only help politicians to further regulate and ban swordsmanship (and win you a spot on my avoidable sword accidents page). Conversely, I'd be more inclined to want to use shinken for such a challenge (theoretically) simply because I don't practice sportive sparring, but rather, real techniques performed within a controlled context.

    This clown is clearly a punk trying to scare or test Howard. If he really wanted to see who was better, he would sign his name and politely ask for a match of some kind at Howard's dojo. Even Sokaku Takeda was careful about the etiquette needed when challenging someone, and he was not known for his polite manners. One theory for why Sokaku never lived in one place very long was that he was hiding from various people that were pursuing him with grudges for killing someone they knew.

    Shinkendo is becoming popular in Australia because of Howard's efforts, and I think his "competition", if you could call it that, are trying to find ways to embarrass or discredit him. Screw them. This is not a legit challenge, and you would need to get permission from Obata Kaiso before accepting such a challenge anyway.

    Regards,
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 9th July 2003 at 22:35.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  11. #26
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    Default I agree

    This individual is clearly looking for trouble. And yes as a represenative or your respective school you would need your Hanshis approval before answering this would be challenge in defense of the school.

    Lastly I find it interesting that everyone who has discussed the prospect of "dueling" on this thread has avoided any possibility of doing it in some sort of controlled and semi safe mannor. Everyone wants to talk about Shinken, and debilitating injury. Fukuro Shinai. These are a represenative weapon that very well simulates the feel of a shinken, and Reduce the chance of injury very well.

    IF persons were to engage in a contest to see who was better, in this the age of the lawsuit I would hope above hope that they were sensable enough to realize that no one has to be injured beyond a red welt to prove who was faster and whose technique struck first.

    "dueling" is bravado fantasy anyway. Dueling with Live blades or Bokken is senseless bravado.

    I have fun fighting with shinai in the capacity that I described above. Its really cool IMHO. I dont really think I will ever engage in a duel. Neat idea?? sure. Realistic? No not really. IF I EVER DID.. I would do everything in my power to make sure that EVERYONE was protected and that the only thing being killed was someones EGO.

    This individual, as it has been stated by others, Who issued the challenge not only insulted you unnessessarily, but is hiding behinde his E-mail. In a proper challenge you would state your Name, School affiliation and your rank. Then you would request a challenge based on your worth as a partisipant. I dont think that anyone can turn down a "request" for a challenge without loseing face. So in light of that fact there is no need to get hostile in a challenge. This after all is not the WWF or any TV stunt.

    Howard, since this person is uncivilized I would venture to say that you lose no face by ignoring this false challenge. Further if he is in earnest, he will have the qualifications to back it up. And I believe any qualified swordsman would have been instructed in some if even only a little Hei-jo-shin. At least I would hope. And there was no evidence of this in the displayed "challenge".
    Keven Cecil
    Iaika
    Musu Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu
    www.whiteherondojo.net

  12. #27
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    We practice the way of the sword everyday,and none of us ever wonders what it be like to really stand against an opponent for real??
    If our skills and more important our hearts will be good enough to stand that test?
    You throw around arguments about legality,wisdom and stature.
    For over 300 years people paid in blood for the lessons we learn today,they fought and tested the techniques our masters teach us.
    Everyday we set our minds to battle real enemies,to test our timing and skill in kata,to find the weakness in our fellow students attack or defense.
    Our hearts and mouths are full of zanshin.
    Everyday our race kills for a penny,a word,a spot on a white sneaker,yet you demean the thought of a duel.
    I rather die by a blade in a duel,than of disease or old age.
    What does all this talk about honour,zanshin or bushido mean,all these serious faces and attitudes in the dojo,this what degree do you have,who is your teacher crap,when you laugh at a challenge and are afraid to meet a blade.
    I truly don't understand you people,it says martial don't it.

  13. #28
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    Default EH???

    What the bloody hell was that crap supposed to mean?

    What is your point?

    How did that bunch of childish gibberish even fit into this conversation?

    Who are you really?

    You sound like the lame that sent the original challenge.

    No thought to the world.. unless your consider that black and white 1956 Akira Kurosawa fantasy a world.

    Really wake up, quit smoking that crap and be real.
    Keven Cecil
    Iaika
    Musu Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu
    www.whiteherondojo.net

  14. #29
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    Perhaps Mr. Quick could make the stipulation that the match take place in Paraguay, where dueling is quite legal as long as both parties are registered blood donors. No, seriously.

    Mr. Wolf, forum rules require that your full name be signed at the bottom of each post. You can set up a signature in the user control panel to do this for you automatically so you don't have to type it in each time. By the way, you wouldn't happen to know a fellow by the name of Rich DeLuca, would you?
    Last edited by Soulend; 10th July 2003 at 04:35.
    David F. Craik

  15. #30
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    My sincere apologies to everyone,it seems that every word and thought is childish,incincere and ludicrous to you all,though i use no drugs,you all seem to think i do.
    every thing i say leads to an argument or leads to a flame war,this serves no purpose at all,if all i write and think leads to this,it's better i leave you people alone.
    I regret that all i do is cause harm.
    i meant what i said,even if that makes me pathetic.

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