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Thread: Dueling ?????

  1. #46
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    You are right,Howard.
    As for Bruce,I enjoy training,working hard and getting better.
    There is no winning in swordtraining,i guess i should simply shut up.
    Last edited by Grey Wolf; 10th July 2003 at 13:48.

  2. #47
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    Wolf,

    Your English is good, but maybe some of the nuances or more subtle aspects are being missed, and that's why there has been a few combative posts? Just a thought! All are welcome here, as you know.

    Kevin,

    Good points. I should have been more clear that I didn't mean to sound antagonistic in my view of kendo. The subject of whether or not kendo is ample "substitute" for swordplay, or to what extent it is or isn't, has been discussed quite a bit here. Search under some past posts if you're interested. We'll simply have to agree to disagree. Suffice it to say, as for me and my house, we shall do kendo!

    Plugged "code duello" into Google and got this on American duelling. Apparently the Code Duello originated in Ireland and spread to England and the colonies.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/duel/sf...ofdueling.html

    Some excerpts:

    Rule 1. The first offense requires the first apology, though the retort may have been more offensive than the insult. Example: A tells B he is impertinent, etc. B retorts that he lies; yet A must make the first apology because he gave the first offense, and then (after one fire) B may explain away the retort by a subsequent apology.

    Rule 2. But if the parties would rather fight on, then after two shots each (but in no case before), B may explain first, and A apologize afterward.

    Rule 5. As a blow is strictly prohibited under any circumstances among gentlemen, no verbal apology can be received for such an insult. The alternatives, therefore -- the offender handing a cane to the injured party, to be used on his own back, at the same time begging pardon; firing on until one or both are disabled; or exchanging three shots, and then asking pardon without proffer of the cane.

    If swords are used, the parties engage until one is well blooded, disabled, or disarmed; or until, after receiving a wound, and blood being drawn, the aggressor begs pardon.

    N.B. A disarm is considered the same as a disable. The disarmer may (strictly) break his adversary's sword; but if it be the challenger who is disarmed, it is considered as ungenerous to do so.

    In the case the challenged be disarmed and refuses to ask pardon or atone, he must not be killed, as formerly; but the challenger may lay his own sword on the aggressor's shoulder, then break the aggressor's sword and say, "I spare your life!" The challenged can never revive the quarrel -- the challenger may.

    Rule 10. Any insult to a lady under a gentleman's care or protection to be considered as, by one degree, a greater offense than if given to the gentleman personally, and to be regulated accordingly.

    Rule 16. The challenged has the right to choose his own weapon, unless the challenger gives his honor he is no swordsman; after which, however, he can decline any second species of weapon proposed by the challenged.

    Rule 22. Any wound sufficient to agitate the nerves and necessarily make the hand shake, must end the business for that day.


    Be interesting to see the Japanese equivalent!
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  3. #48
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    Default More on American duels

    http://www.imaginemaine.com/Features...Cilley.html%20

    The preeminent American duelist was Andrew Jackson, military hero and 7th President of the United States. He was reputedly involved in some capacity or fought in as many as 103 duels, fights or altercations according to "The Indiscretions of Andrew Jackson", an 1828 anti-Jackson campaign rag. Certainly Jackson was hot-blooded and quick to anger. Two encounters stick out; neither would be considered honorable by code standards.

    What started as an argument over a horse race ended in the death of Charles Dickinson, the only fatality in the 103 fights/duels. Jackson literally picked a quarrel with Dickinson. He arrived at the dueling ground in a voluminous dressing gown which hid the lines of his body making him a difficult shot. Determined to kill his opponent, Jackson stated that he would allow Dickinson, the better marksman, to take the first shot. Then he would take careful aim and shoot Dickinson even "if he had shot me through the brain". Dickinson did shoot him, seriously and in the chest. Although blood dripped on his shoe, Jackson claimed he was only pinked. Jackson then calmly aimed and fired. The pistol stopped at half-cock! According to the code, the circumstances required a complete second round. Jackson did not stand on this formality; he simply aimed and fired again immediately. Dickinson was fatally wounded and, according to the rules, murdered! It was a stain not removed from Jackson's reputation until the Battle of New Orleans. The chest wound never healed properly and was considered to be contributory to his death nearly forty years later.

    The second incident, in 1813, was an altercation between Jackson and the brothers Thomas Hart and Jesse Benton, but the cause was a duel in which Jackson acted as second to a man who shot Jesse Benton in the rear end. What started as a laughing matter went sour and led to a running gun battle in the lobby of a Nashville Hotel. During what can only be called a brawl, several people joined the engagement, and Jackson was shot in the shoulder. He carried the bullet to his grave.
    The eight year term of Jackson's presidency was considered the heyday of dueling in Washington and America.



    http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/dueling/4.html

    I thoroughly disapprove of duels. I consider them unwise and I know they are dangerous. Also, sinful. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet retired spot and kill him.
    - Autobiography of Mark Twain


    I feel like Joe Svinth here!
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  4. #49
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    mr.kondek,
    you are right,i just posted my little story without explaining myself.
    it does read,like i support mr.Quick his "challenger" and the idea of a duel.
    All of us here practice with the sword,we do so because we love it and it brings us joy.
    we did not take it up to challenge others or spill blood.
    Each ryu or style takes a lifetime to perfect,there are no superior ryu,just superior swordsmen.
    I just find it surprising,that when some fool challenges in this case Mr.Quick,we talk about legalities and look at this purely intelectual,instead of taking him up on his offer and beating him an inch of his sorry life.
    Somehow i doubt if this person walked into any of your ryu and made these claims,if he would be able to walk out again in one piece.

    Len van der Wolf.

  5. #50
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    See that's where your confusing fantasy with reality. We live in the modern age. The judge isn't going to care if the guy deserved being beaten to within an inch of his life. The situation was clearly not self defense as it could have been easily avoided. You can't seperate the dojo from the real world. The legalities do matter.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  6. #51
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    "Grey Wolf",

    It is those that have attitudes such as yours that end up hacking people up with "Samurai Swords" at super markets. Those trying to live a fantasy or that pursue an immature or perverted "blood lust" have no business in any martial arts dojo. And this is not a weak thing to say, or indicative of a weak stomach. If you really want to follow the "samurai ideal", then you would find that the various writings - and the symbology of the kanji "bu" (martial) itself - clearly dictate the ideal of stopping war/violence.

    There are many people who do train seriously in budo, and in fact use their training in various professions. That is the most appropriate application of budo in modern times, from a technical standpoint. Seeking to duel other people to find out how good you are is, if nothing else, short sighted and illegal.

    BTW, you are not welcome to post on e-budo any further until you adjust your account so that your real name appears in all of your posts. That is the rule, and you were reminded of this several posts ago.

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  7. #52
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    Everyone else,

    I just noticed in the further rantings Howard posted that the "challenger" (punk) says that he went to the dojo of the various other teachers and defeated them in front of their own students. This is however, different than what he is prepared to do with Howard. Having someone visit your dojo in front of witnesses and challenge you is much different than both agreeing to sneak off some place by yourselves to bash it out.

    Most countries would call dojo yaburi a self-defense situation!

    Taking this into consideration, it really does seem as though someone is either playing with Howard or trying to set him up. Why not offer your name, or be willing to approach Howard at his dojo?

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  8. #53
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    I just find it surprising,that when some fool challenges in this case Mr.Quick,we talk about legalities and look at this purely intelectual,instead of taking him up on his offer and beating him an inch of his sorry life.
    I don't know how the law works in Holland or Down Under, but here in the States if Mr. Quick went out and thrashed this guy, the guy would probably turn around and sue him for a pretty penny. Now, if beating some nameless, faceless dolt into a bloody pulp is worth thousands of dollars and the possibility of a stay at the Graybar hotel to you, then by all means have at it. I find it surprising that you have lived 38 years and are not posting from a prison library somewhere with an attitude like that. This is no longer the Sengoku Jidai, and you can't just pick up a weapon and commence to merrily split wigs anymore.

    /opinion mode on
    The thing is, even if it were quite legal, would it even be worth it then? A warrior, IMHO, is prepared to give his life for a worthy cause. Shinu kikai o motomo does not mean simply throwing your life away on just any old thing. It means being prepared to unflinchingly hand over your head for something that matters. Like if this fellow threatened or was endangering Mr. Quick's family, for example.


    Like Mr. Scott said, if this challenger was serious he would take the onus of legal responsibility upon himself and show up at the dojo, bokuto in hand. At any rate, this e-mail challenger appears to be an idiot anyway, he of the Random Capitalization and the Sun-Moon-and-Stars Ryu.

    /opinion mode off
    David F. Craik

  9. #54
    Chiburi69 Guest

    Default A cut is a cut

    If you talk the walk do it! " my blade is always ready "

  10. #55
    A. M. Jauregui Guest

    Default ^

    Always include your name in your posts, Rich DeLuca. It is a rule around here.

  11. #56
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    Default Re: A cut is a cut

    Originally posted by Chiburi69
    If you talk the walk do it! " my blade is always ready "
    Chiburi69 (Rich DeLuca),

    Please sign your full name on each of your posts. This is E-budo policy.
    Last edited by George Kohler; 11th July 2003 at 06:59.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

  12. #57
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    Thumbs up I guess he's not banned anymore

    Yay! He's back!
    David F. Craik

  13. #58
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    I have updated my profile,when all is correct my name will be shown.
    Things have gotten way out of hand,this is for a great deal my own fault,but there are some here that insinuated some pretty harsh things about me.
    I don't challenge people,I don't attack people,i'm not a violent man.
    I choose a certain ryu and through places like E-budo I wish to learn more about others.
    Can we please get past this incident and on to more productive discussions.
    I will make an effort not too put my foot in my mouth again.
    Len van der Wolf

  14. #59
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    Default Are you mocking my dirks?

    You all are obviously a bunch of pussies. A real swordsman would cut himself open and pull out his own entrails in an insulting manner before submitting so meekly and letting a challenge go unanswered. I'm truly saddened to see that the spirit of the sword has become so diluted here in the west. The truth is, there are those who still have the guts to step up to the plate, legal consequences be damned. The prospect of serving a 40 year jail sentence for murder should be no deterrent to the true koryu practitioner. Not a few times has the blood of some upstart stained the floor of my dojo, I can tell you! (fortunately one of my comrades-in-arms has a station wagon and a sizeable backyard, and no one has thought to dig it up yet). Okay, seriously folks-this is f-ing ridiculous. When the first poster said he was actually talking about a real duel, I nearly lost it. Don't you think we might hear about that sort of thing? I can see the headline now: "Local Martial Artist Slain in Kusarigama Duel" or more likely "Insane Motherf-ers Kill Each Other After Watching Highlander for the 187th Time." No, koryu guys don't go around fighting with real weapons. That deserves a big huge George W. DUH!!!! Grey Wolf, I can't place you at all. Instinct tells me pure Troll, but some of your info rings true. Would you really duel with live blades if some wacko challenged you? Really? You wouldn't care about going to prison for murder? Do you think your teachers would approve? Do you think Otake Sensei would accept a challenge to "Duel to the Death?" Are you telling me you're not "afraid to meet a blade?" Yeah, right. You post pretty nasty stuff, and then get all huffy and tell us how reasonable you are and how you didn't want a flame-war. Well, if I told you that, no offense, but I was fed up with ¤¤¤¤-for-brains asshole faggot Netherlanders who think they're better than everybody cause they have national health care and a high standard of living, not to mention who imply that because of their extensive training they are prepared to take up a live blade in a duel without fear, but who in fact would defecate in their panties if someone was actually trying to kill them with a three foot razor; well, you might get offended anyway. And it would be pretty stupid of me to wonder why, now wouldn't it? Disclaimer: This response refers to items in another thread, and anything that seems overly-harsh is merely a close parody of other statements by Grey Wolf. See thread "A Few Q's From A Newbie." I've rambled too long. G'night!
    Nathan Sherrard

  15. #60
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    ,Nathan,
    I'm glad that there are sharp guy's like you,who see the true meaning of my words and the man[i use the term loosely]that i am.
    Hell,i even ¤¤¤¤ my pants every morning when i have to shave.
    Next time i use our healthcare,i'll try finding a shrink of your stature to help me with my inferiority complex.
    So i am pure troll,guess that explains why i feel so small.
    Thank God for the internet
    Len van der Wolf

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