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Thread: Dueling ?????

  1. #61
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    LOL at this whole thread.

    I've already said this, like, three times, but...

    Kendo allows us to thrash each other without worring about doing a stretch at the greybar hotel afterward.

    Oh, right, kendo's not real swordplay. Never mind. Carry on...

    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  2. #62
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    Default AH the circle

    And the circle goes on... and on .. and on.. and on.

    Originally.. someone posted.. Is it possible to duel today?? What would be the standards if it was done? and If you have heard of anything like this for real, please tell me.

    Ding Ding.. Let the fighting begin.

    And once the fighting begins... a moderator steps in and says essensialy, KNOCK IT OFF.. it calms down.. Grey Wolf even starts acting civil.. and some-one comes along and Pushes him and say "hey werent you causing trouble yesterday?" Now the fight will be on again and were not even touching the true subject of this thread.. ONCE AGAIN.

    And when we do approach this.. people want to talk Live blades or the unreality of kendo. Circle upon Circle.

    Does anyone have anything new to say? Can we contribute to this topic about the possibility of dueling? I heard someone talk about stopping within one inch above. that was real.. Ive even heard of that before from my sensei.

    If you were going to "duel" in some capacity, how would you do it? EXCLUDING deadly force. How would you approach this situation in such a mannor that you could resolve the "difference" in opinion or what ever and still not go to jail. What would be important in a non lethal duel. Things that would still "keep it real" but satisfy all parties and keep the local SWAT team off your back.


    BTW, I recieved a PM from Grey Wolf apoligizing for his conduct. For now I will accept it. Perhaps he will mend his ways and "straighten up" We will see. But, not if people keep attacking him for what he has already done. True? The moderator already gave him a virtual kick in the crotch. Lets start over.


    ON to the subject !!!!
    Keven Cecil
    Iaika
    Musu Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu
    www.whiteherondojo.net

  3. #63
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    Seriously people, this thread is now 5 pages long and has become stupid. If
    there is nothing further to contribute that relates to the original topic of this thread, or to the "challenge" made to Howard posted here, then let's move on.

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  4. #64
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    Default Too late!

    My ornery post evidently came too late in the game...oh well. Ya'll do realize these threads are a lot more entertaining when people get into it with each other, right? The arguments here tend to be a bit more coherent than other places on the net. Actual discussion is involved, rather than simply hurling invectives (though a little invective-hurling occurs from time to time). Still, I guess this thread has run its course. So now we're talking about rules for dueling in such a way that no one is maimed or killed, but still maintaining enough realism to determine who is A#1 head-honcho badass? That was not the question that originated this thread. However, I will say that several koryu guys I know have "gone at it" at one time or another, mostly in a friendly "don't hurt each other too badly" sort of way. Outside of that, I suppose donning some kendo gear and using bokken might work, but I certainly don't know of any formal rules for accepting challenges in the koryu world. Most koryu guys I know would view such a challenge with raised eyebrows and a snicker or two (perhaps followed by the universal "twirl finger around temple" sign for "wacko").
    Nathan Sherrard

  5. #65
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    Thumbs up Nathan's got a good point...

    ...After all, even the most high-minded of us are willing to read through page after page of flaming, namecalling and gossip just out of sheer prurient interest--oh yes, and to edumacate ourselves as to the psyche of our possible future opponents...

    And, face it--can any of us admit that we have NEVER indulged in a little post-Apocalyptic fantasizing about a world where we might indeed have to defend ourselves with our swords in order to survive? Try reading "Ariel" by Stephen Boyett (out of print, but worth hunting down) and see if you don't identify with the protagonist and his sword--whose name I will withold so as not to be accused of being a spoiler...

    As for how we can "duel" in real life, well, I propose designing a game of Samurai "Capture the Flag." We can have teams (clans) with a clan head, several loyal retainers, a few mercs, and of course a ninja or two to make things even more interesting. Capture a retainer and you can either kill them or hold them as a hostage. Capture a merc and give them a choice--death or they can join your side. The flag is to be held by the head of the clan--capture the head, and the whole clan falls. Have to have some way of making swords that will leave red lines where you slash your opponent, and develop some rules about fatal cuts vs. disabling injuries.

    Just think, this could be a way to bring together folks who train in established schools, ronin, ninja--to finally establish who's the best!!!! Maybe we can even interest ESPN in syndicating the weekly bouts! So, start choosing your clans...

    Sincerely,

    Diane "One-foot-firmly-rooted-in-fantasy" MIrro

  6. #66
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    Lightbulb

    Dear Keven:

    ".....And once the fighting begins... a moderator steps in and says essensialy, KNOCK IT OFF.. it calms down.. Grey Wolf even starts acting civil.. and some-one comes along and Pushes him and say "hey werent you causing trouble yesterday?" Now the fight will be on again and were not even touching the true subject of this thread.. ONCE AGAIN......"

    I have to say that I am with you on this one and its not a particularly new development as I see it.

    For a moment lets put to one side the talk of dueling and just consider any emotionally charged yet predominantly intellectual issue. Diane was right to say that most of us will read through pages of guff just for the satisfaction of watching a couple of guys go at it "NHB", if you know what I mean. Turn to any of the "general" venues on any of these Nets and you will see tons of strings with the most innane whining and pontificating. Want a stop a string in short order? Just start talking like people can actually think for themselves and watch the conversation dry-up. Now, let me slip back to the issue of duelling once again.

    As many times as I have seen some pretty nasty exchanges on these Nets I have often considered what the ramifications would be if folks had to face off with each other for even half of what they say and do. I am NOT talking about showing up at a competitors' school and challenging them to a fist fight. I am talking about actually laying out a match with weapons where a person puts his actions where his mouth was and there is a good chance that somebody is going to be carried off the field. Serious business, this.

    When the Internet came out there was a huge promise of communication and information sharing and a "paper-less environment". I remember those promises when I read some of what passes for communication on these Nets and wonder how much of this would go on, if there was the chance that someone would get all "17th Century" on an antagonist and the result could actually be an early morning encounter with swords--- or even bok-ken.

    It would require meeting on some obscure, neutral ground unfettered by juristictional oversight.

    a desire to eschew any kind of publicity or recognition of the event

    a willingness to endure any and all repercussions that might follow including imprisonment as a function of ones' stalwart belief in the correctness of their position.

    I am talking about a situation where people play for keeps. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  7. #67
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    The main trouble with me[apart from insulting people that i would probably admire and have a good laugh with in real life and making broad accusations to an entire nation of people that are responsible for at least 80 percent of my joy in the hobbies i have since i was a small boy]is that i looked at this subject from an emotional point of view.
    Today we wouldn't challenge but learn from each other,see the other ryu's strong points instead of searching for it's weakness,these day's were looking for knowledge.
    The only cause for a duel would be a heated argument or just plain hate.
    We train to the point that we change tempo in our kata's to lure our opponent in a mistake,coming as close to "real battle"as we can,how easy it would be to loose restraint and just hit were we normally stop?
    This i would see in a "duel"today,simply not stopping,whether bokken,bokuto or a broomstick,to hit is to loose that bodypart as with a "live Blade",in case of sour losers use a unbiased judge who dislikes both parties
    As to the law in my country,there would be just as much trouble as in the US[without the sueing,Thank god ]
    But there is a lot of random violence these days,we call it "zinloos geweld" and our laws are gradually changing to give people a change to defend themselves against it.
    I feel that after the dust settled from my abuse,there were a lot of good posts and interesting arguments from people to this thread,not to mention Nathans hilarious post about me and the Dutch,good stuff
    Len van der Wolf

  8. #68
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    Default Yes indeed.

    Yes Diane... or should I call you the road warrior..

    I think that any of us who grew up in that crazy age of Sci-Fi have had the thoughts of what if the world ended and I had to fight my way out. Maybe not recently, but weve had it. I think anyone who carries a sword has had the "what if I had to use it" self discussion. I still have it. Especially after I saw the footage of that guy with a katana in LA a few years ago. took the swat team with the help of the fire dept to stop/apprehend him. And that made me think, what if he had come into my dojo.. him or his mental clone. And I have all these kids and young adults. And he wants to go Musashi and prove that hes better than the guy in the paper? Suffice to say that I devised a strategy for this unlikely event. It begins with clearing the dojo through the back door. And then you/I have to try to terminate the event knowing that the students have called the police.

    Or even better, this reminds me of the time I was kinda challenged to a duel. I saw a kid..(15-17) wearing a shirt with a samurai on it. Well Im a sucker for this kind of stuff and so I approached him. Now Im in the Mall, with a student of mine, we both run bussiness's there, and were on the way to his shop. Anyway, I see this kid, and I ask him where he got the shirt.. After that information is passed, he says to me.. Ive got this uniform. And gestures at the shirt. Tom and I exchange looks. I say "really" Thinking I may have a new student. He says "Yea, Im a Samurai Master". again I say "really" With one of those sighs he says "yea Im a master of Hiten Mitsurugi Batto Jutsu." with a dead straight serious face I might add. Tom looks at me, and leaves. Just gone suddenly, Ninja like and very funny to me. Kenshin boy doesnt notice. SO I ask him if he has a sword. He gets sad and says no, just a bokken. He asks me if Ive ever heard of Hiten Miusurugi Ryu. I say that I have. well have you heard of "bla bla bla" Im caught out.. Ive watched all 95 episodes once and seen all the movies. But I dont know what hes talking about. I say no. He knodds in a sage like mannor. I say that I teach Iaijutsu. He wants to know what that is. I say Battojutsu. So he askes me if I know "bla bla bla" I catch it this time. And say isnt that a Hiten technique. "oh you do know, you do know" Hes really impressed. " I tell my friends at school about this and they dont know what it is." Hes still impressed and looking at me kinda weird now. "but you really do know what it is. Its not very well known."

    Ok Im convinced that this poor kid has pulled/pushed himself into some sort of fantasy world at this point. I decide to help him. I offer for him to come to the dojo. Perhaps seeing reall swordmanship will help him. Maybe I can take him as a student and help him with his delusion. He says "you have a school??" I confirm this. " can I duel you? Its getting hard to find anyone to duel. I havent dueled in a long time"

    Ok thats the jist of it. And it really scared me at the time. Especially when he told me he had two students. Ive never seen him since.

    If we were to duel, in these times, I agree with Diane we would need a marking system to attach to our shinai. I was actually thinking of putting a ribbon on my Fukuro, through the laces. And marking the Mono-uchi. This way a judge could see if I made "cutting" contact. Also the Kissaki would have to make contact during "zuki" enough to bow the weapon. I recall fighting a student who thrust at me, and I managed to back up with the thrust. The tip just bearly touched me and I "rode" it as he stepped in a recieved a nasty blow to the head. But the tip would not have entered my person had it been a real sword. Very cool at the time, but I wouldnt count on being able to do it again.

    And there would have to be rules about striking. Perhaps, but then in a "real" fight anything that worked would have been justified by the result.
    Keven Cecil
    Iaika
    Musu Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu
    www.whiteherondojo.net

  9. #69
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    The point is that e-budo has probably the highest percentage of useful contributions to the discussion of Japanese martial arts on the net. An "atmosphere" has been created here, more or less, that promotes this. When people start making senseless contributions, it kills a thread that might have been otherwise educational to others, and perhaps worthy of archiving.

    The reason I quit being a moderator in the JSA forum of swordforum is because such an atmosphere could not be created, and personally, I'm on the net to discuss budo, not to burn off hours during the day just chit-chatting or talking about fiction (nothing wrong with fiction).

    Why allow e-budo to become the same as every other forum on the net? Isn't it nice to go somewhere that is different every now and then? Those less experienced research here and try to ask good questions, or subjects of discussion, and those with more experience offer their points of view for consideration. We do have a members lounge to go chit chat in anyway, if that is what you want to do. Easy formula that allows some of us to continue to grow in budo those hours that we're not in the dojo.

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  10. #70
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    Lightbulb

    OK. Nathan wants to keep the quality of the interchange up to specs and Keven and Diane want to talk fantasy stuff. I am going to satisfy everyone concerned--- and my fingers never leave my hands.

    As most people in the modern world know the use of technology has done some pretty great things. One of those great things are the transducers that when stressed emit an electrical charge. If you folks are bound and determined to go "fantasy" on me how about we construct a shinai with a tranducer in it that emits a beep when the shinai is struck with sufficient force. A glancing blow wouldn't do it.

    OK--- now thats for the kids.

    For the adults we have one of those electric shock gizmos mounted in the small of the back with an internal receiver. When stuck with the shinai at a sufficent force, the transducer in the shinai emits a signal that is received by shock unit and the discharges the electric shock into the person struck. Just hitting shinai wouldn't generate a pulse because the mass of the shinai is not enough. You would need to hit something solid--- and pretty hard to get the pulse. And for those of us who like thrusting techniques we could even mount a mini-cattle-prod in the end of the shinai.

    Ooopppss. 1 o'clock. The Voices are telling me to go take my meds.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  11. #71
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    Default I guess I fail to see

    That is I fail to see how a topic on the possibility of non lethal dueling is childish or fantasy orientated. Well unless you consider Kumite to be fantasy. What Im talking about with the "dueling" is actaully sword Kumite. How would you do it? NOT KENDO.. Kenjutsu.

    And the part about the kid challenging me in a round about way.. did happen. And the guy in LosAngles, he was real too. Fortuantly I never met anyone like him in person. Just a scary thought.

    The part about end of the world confrontation. Ok that was fantasy. But I consider it a mental excersise. How would you? What would you? Kind of Mental streching. I KNOW its not real. I hope like Hell I never have to do anything like that. But "outside the box" thinking is very good for you.

    BTW, I like the shock therapy ideas. Very cool. Makes my ribbon idea look kinda tame.
    Keven Cecil
    Iaika
    Musu Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu
    www.whiteherondojo.net

  12. #72
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    Originally posted by kabutoki
    hello,
    i donīt know anything about contemporary fights to death but the above mentioned "Menschen" still exists today. i donīt know the english term but in germany we use the latin word "mensur". this kind of duell is practiced in student clubs. many of these consder themselves as being elite because of this archaic ritual. i canīt help to mention that some of these clubs have a strng tendency to the right wing parties in germany. exessive drinking is often complementary. i strongly oppose these clubs...but back to the fencing.
    two students face each other with sabers, gloves, and protective gear and glasses or masks that leave open the cheeks. there are also secundants, a med. and some witnesses.
    the two duellants fight in sets of 4 cuts each and the opponent has to parry the cuts. being cut leaves a scar on the persons cheek and is considered as an honour and a proof of being brave.
    most people i know distance themselves from any of these organisations but they still have influence especially because of their strong alumni connections to the buisiness world.

    hth
    karsten
    Hi Karsten.

    Thanks for the reply and sorry I'm about five pages late in answering. First off, I didn't mean to in anyway imply that I was in support of the Menschen, I just thought it was interesting. It does seem a little over the top macho BS to me, particularly since such pains are taken to protect oneself are available as well as doctors.

    And to Sharp Phil:

    BRING IT ON!!! I am the Master of the Icee and I brook no insult to my reign! 8'oclock, Circle K. If you're really the Master you say you are, you'll know which one. The Icee Damashii is telling me right now! Come meet your doom on my Most Serious and Terrible Japanese Sword!

    --Neil Melancon--

  13. #73
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    Lightbulb

    OK, that does it. You guys are on de-caf the rest of the string.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  14. #74
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    THere is no such thing as "non lethal" duelling. Use the English language correctly. The word duel means a fight which two persons choose time and place and then try to kill each other. Mercy is not forbidden but then again, dying isn't euther."non lethal duelling" is sparring. Use the right words or it can get you in trouble

    Example; 1] circumcision 2] castration

    similar but not the same........
    Lurking in dark alleys may be hazardous to other peoples health........

  15. #75
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    Default Really?

    Wow, I wonder what dueling to first blood was then?

    Must have been sparing with lethal weapons.

    I bet they got in a fight for not using the correct words.
    Keven Cecil
    Iaika
    Musu Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu
    www.whiteherondojo.net

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