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Thread: Back to the mat and face to face?

  1. #1
    A. M. Jauregui Guest

    Default Back to the mat and face to face?

    I searched through several threads but did not come across an of explanation as to why uke is kept back to the mat and dealt with face to face instead of rolled over so that uke is face down on the mats.

    Anyone care to stipulate why? I have just gone with the flow over the years and not really questioned why, so an answer would be delightful.

  2. #2

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    I once asked why Ippon was scored when uke’s back touched the mat (as opposed to throwing them so they land on their face/shoulder/side). Consensus was that it was for uke’s safety (which is kind of ironic when you see some of the dangerous turn-outs used to avoid the score in competition).

    If you’re talking strictly about newaza – well, it’s hard to turn somebody and take their back! There’s a good reason it’s the highest scoring position in BJJ comps. Even in Judo, as long as you can get your hooks in before your opponent tightly turtles up*, it’s a highly desireable position.

    From a defensive perspective, if you’re on the ground fighting somebody above you, you will logically try to stay facing them. From the attacker’s perspective, you might as well try and dominate from the position you naturally find yourself in. Most opportunities to go to someone’s back come from them turning to escape an attack from the mount or side-control, rather than from the attacker physically manhandling them.

    *‘Turtling’ is a different matter, as its sole purpose in shiai is to stall the action in order to get stood up. It’s a stupid exploitation of the rules, and should NOT be rewarded with a stand-up, IMO

    Cheers,

    Mike

  3. #3
    jeffbruner Guest

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    Why don't we allow pins with uke face down?

    This is a question that I have thought about a lot recently. Here are some of my thoughts;

    First, note that Aikidoka routinely control uke face down on the mat. With uke face down, there is little they can do to attack from that position. So why have we (seemingly) ignored this in judo? the answer is we haven't. I'll explain....

    Certainly in a self defense situation if you are face down, you are very open to all kinds of potentially lethal attacks to the neck and spine. So, again, why do we (seemingly) not have ways in Judo to control uke when they are face down?

    The answer is that we DO have techniques that are "legal" in Judo that we can use with uke face down.

    There are chokes and arm locks that can be accomplished with uke on their stomach, but pins - gatame waza - are less effective with uke on their stomach. This is because uke can get their legs under them and break away easier when on their stomach than when on their back.

    So the techniques we consider most useful with uke on their stomach are Submission Techniques rather than Control Techniques (and I think this is supported in Aikido as well).

    As noted above, going to your stomach in a real life self defense situation is very dangerous. I therfore think we should find ways to discourage the now common practice of "Turtleing" in competion. Possibly penalty points should be awarded for defense posture. We do this when standing, why not in ne waza?

    Note that BJJ gives points for "taking the back"

    It is also interesting to note that kesa gatame - as most of us practice it - leaves tori open to various attacks. When introducing my (completely novice) 13 year old daughter to the hold, I asked her to "get out of it." She simply took a handful of my hair and yanked! Ow!!! It could be an effective escape in real life!

    A good reason to keep your hair cropped!

    Joking aside, I feel tori is very vulnerable to attack in kesa gatame in a self efense situation... what if uke had a hidden knife they could jam into your back?

    Things to ponder... an old sensei of mine taught that armlocks could be used as control techniques in these type of self defense situations... you put on the lock to the point of pain and then back off slightly. When uke struggles, you tighten up the lock. This keeps uke 'occupied' and focused on the point of pain. They won't be able to do much else.

    Any-who, My .02.












    Submission Techniques

  4. #4
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    Originally posted by jeffbruner
    [B]
    It is also interesting to note that kesa gatame - as most of us practice it - leaves tori open to various attacks. When introducing my (completely novice) 13 year old daughter to the hold, I asked her to "get out of it." She simply took a handful of my hair and yanked! Ow!!! It could be an effective escape in real life!
    This argument could be made for just about all of the pinning positions. Yoko shiho for example, leaves you just as wide open; with kesa you can at least provide choking pressure to the side of the neck. I'd argue you can also force a submission by leaning more pressure into uke's ribs from kesa as well.

    The rest of your arguments are well taken, some discussions on the judo-l mailing list have had me thinking about them as well. I kinda like the idea of penalties to excessive turtling, but there are also so many wonderful sneaks when someoe reaches their hand inside. And what would then be deemed excessive? It's something to consider.

    Rob Thornton

  5. #5
    jeffbruner Guest

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    Hi Rob....

    I think part of the reason we can force a submission with kesa gatame or other pins (and I have done this, BTW) is because according to the rules of Judo, uke's responses are limited.

    No strikes, hair pulls, eye gouges, or weapons... In a self-defense situation there are no rules, of course.

    It all depends on the degree of combat in which we are engaged. If its just a game, one will certainly be more likely to submit than if it is a life-and-death situation.

    best regards,

  6. #6
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    Certainly, the throws are on the back for safety. It may just be that the pin proceeds from the throw (when you do not score ippon).

    IMO, pinning people on their backs proves something in an athletic competition. Pinning face down doesn't provide as much of a challenge.
    Jack Bieler

    "The best things can't be told; the second best are misunderstood; the third best are what we talk about." - after Heinrich Zimmer

  7. #7
    jeffbruner Guest

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    It is a good point that pins on the back follow from the throws, but I'm not sure I'd say throws to the back are for safety.

    On mats, with judoka properly trained in ukemi, throws to the back may or may not be safer. But on the street, a throw to the back would likely be more devastating than a throw to the front, where uke could catch/cushion himself with his arms or legs. He is defenseless in a throw to the back.

    I guess that makes about 4 cents now....

    -JB

  8. #8
    MarkF Guest

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    The turns involved in nage-waza ARE purposely done, even if one hasn't learned that aspect yet. Why not just drop uke on his head or upper back and neck/head? Sutemi-waza are a case in point. Unless one is going for a mamikomi-like sutemi, these are very dangerous throws without the safety measures. The way people attempt to stop a score in shiai is scary. I recently witnessed a match in which uke, ultimately thrown well, stuck his head out instead of tucking it, and took it full-on the top of the head, then rolling onto his back which was then called Ippon. That was scary because the shinban let it play out instead of disqualifying uke. That is something which should be considered, though it will always be a judgement call, and we certainly have enough of those. Uke is taught to tuck his chin, tori is taught to help him do this. And as to force to a mat, we are also taught, in the beginning, anyway, that "helping" uke by lifting on the arm in your grasp helps lighten the load on the way to the ground, all of this meant to do judo all out, and come back to the next class/shiai with little or no injury, but it all takes a lot of practice. I've known teachers who refuse to teach proper ukemi because the point IS self-defense first. I disagree. The SD realization comes with experience and age. Not teaching ukemi because of the belief that you are teaching them how to lose doesn't hold water (this was stated by a well-known judoka).

    But getting back to Ana's question, and (I think) Jeff's answer, is a good one, one which has come up several times before.

    Part of it is a sporting reason, one cannot score an osaikomi Ippon without uke's shoulders to the mat, but for each of those is a realistic one, if we make small changes. Pinning mouth down does make is easier to escape, and it can hide, in a real situation, weapons, etc., a point already made. There are ways of unarmed defense when mouth down is preferable, but not necessary. I disagree with kesa-gatame, too. That's why we have kuzure kesa-gatame so we can see what uke is up to. There are also many ways of immobilizing, using one's weight at or below the solar plexus is one (hon kesa gatame), if you have the weight. If not, one can lean back, with the arm behind him and around the neck, and when your attacker tries to move, one can simply lift up with the arm and push back a little bending his neck the way it doesn't want to go with the use of a little lean out. You don't need to grip in that position, either (the clothing), but lowering your center is key in either situation.

    Two examples of immobilization with uke mouth down are waki-gatame and hara-gatame, both excellent arm holds, both pushing the attacker to the ground, generally face first, as that is the only direction in which to find relief, so it isn't completely true that we always look to turn uke, the reasons vary. Strangles are many with a turtled uke, and in a real encounter, there are even more. This usually becomes evident without having to be in a street situation, common sense teaches us first.


    Mark

  9. #9
    A. M. Jauregui Guest

    Default

    Thanks for the reply guys. Like I stated I just go with the flow when I do judo for I practice it in more of a martial sport then martial art context.

    Mike you are right in the it is at times (most of the time) arduous to take someone’s back, what I meant (sorry that I was not clear) is that it is not that difficult to get someone on their stomach directly from a throw or within on movement there after. And as for turtling it really is plan foolishness in most cases...

    Jeff good points, I can definitely see where you are coming from. The rules of Judo do make responses limited. The only thing that I disagree is that it is more advantageous to throw someone on to their back instead of their front, statement. I say this mainly for a person crawling on hands and knees is in a horrible position compared to on one’s back where eye contact with opponent is better, it is safer to stand back up, and better use of one’s limbs is possible. (Hope that is clear - if not just ask...)

    Really this topic has come up before, sorry about that Mark, I need to search more thoroughly.

  10. #10
    MarkF Guest

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    Ana,
    Yes, it comes up, but it usually brings up new points NOT discussed, but there is little which hasn't after so many years, I thought you may be interested in reading what there is on the subject. Sometimes, it comes in theads which don't indicate it, or start with a different topic. I'm usually easy, I don't mind threads going in another direction, but if it becomes a completely different line of comments I'll split it into two threads.

    Come to think of it, I can't think of a good search word for it so you'd probably have to be very general as in Ne-waza and Self-defense, or similar search words. You have a point, though, and not many even consider it. I have been to seminars in which technique is taught concerning that very thing, holding a person on his/her front. Other than arm and strangle holds, what I saw was new to me. Painful, too.


    Mark

    PS: The sporting side of judo has a lot of merit and is a very traditional part of judo. Sometimes, it is the one place where certain things come up which wouldn't in the dojo. Besides, I did only that for a long time and am kind of partial to it.

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