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Thread: What Happened to the "Judo Chop"?

  1. #1
    boku_wa Guest

    Default What Happened to the "Judo Chop"?

    did the original kodokan judo have strikes (punches & kicks) along with the throwing/grappling/choking techniques? if so, what happened to them?

    i saw a self defense kata which demonstrated techniques that i would have liked to practice in class. the judo nowadays is mainly sport-centered, so no one seems to be stressing the punches & kicks except in the kata.

    the self defense aspect of judo doesn't become apparent until much later after practicing it...or until some experienced person points out more clearly how the techniques can be modified for gi-less takedowns.

    would appreciate any comments/info on this.

    thanks,
    laly

  2. #2
    A. M. Jauregui Guest

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    Yup, atemi still there in the form of various kata. Some dojo stress them more and seem less. Plus it helps being a girl... ^.^

    The greatest none apparent self defense aspect of judo, imho, is kuzushi as seen in happo no kuzushi (eight directions of off balancing) and in everyday randori.

    There are many none dogi take downs, give http://www.judoinfo.com/techjudo.htm a try.

    Please, oh please, sign your post with your full name. Or Mark is going to...

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    I just can't pass this up!


    What happened to the "judo chop"?

    The dog ate it.
    Chuck Clark
    Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
    http://www.jiyushinkai.org

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    I am also curious about the disappearance of the judo chop. When you look in older judo/ self defense manuals, the judo chop/edge of hand blow/hack or whatever name they call it is always there. Sometime in the late '50's early '60's, it is replaced with the karate punch.
    Did the advent of karate co-incide with the sporting emphasis of judo? As stated elsewhere, judo is mainly taught as a sport, not the complete martial art it is.
    Cris Anderson

    All my best ideas were stolen by the Ancients.

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    Karate began to really take off in the US in the 60s. (I started karate in 1970.) Judo became an Olympic demonstration sport I think in 1964, and shortly thereafter because a full Olympic sport (others will be better informed on the date than I am).

    It's too bad that most judo dojo have deemphasized goshinjutsu. It is a very effective self defense method.

  6. #6
    A. M. Jauregui Guest

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    Judo chop = tegatana ate = hand blade strike...

    The use of tegatana or hand blades is prevalent in traditional jujutsu and therefore included in judo in the kata.

    Karate punch is a really general term but straight punches (tsuki) were and still are found in judo in the kata.

    I sound like a broken record (yes I read about them) but the punching, eye gouging, kicking, self defence, etcetera is still found in judo in the kata.

    From my understanding karate and Chinese martial arts seen in movies during the 60s and more so in the 70s had an impact on judo dojo. The impact was mainly economic / marketing in nature but I am sure that just like today judo was a watermark for other martial art that practice randori (sparing). Being a measure at times to other martial arts, I imagine, judo has be influenced over time.

    From what I hear judo just was not the same afterthe second world war... But the sporting emphasis of judo was there from just about day one in 1882 (or is it 1884?). Just kind of coincidence that karate was introduced into Japan around the early 1900s.

    Mark where are you?
    Last edited by A. M. Jauregui; 1st August 2003 at 11:08.

  7. #7
    MarkF Guest

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    Originally posted by Chuck Clark
    I just can't pass this up!


    What happened to the "judo chop"?

    The dog ate it.
    Hi, Chuckie,
    I thought the great Rassler, Mr. Moto left it in the ring at the Olympic Auditorium in LA. Is that where your dog found it?

    Atemi was never really used as much more than another tool for off-balancing. Accuracy isn't all that great, anyway, so it was mostly used on the body. The maxim in boxing holds true: "Kill the body and the head follows."

    An example would be a strike to the inside of the shoulder, in the fleshy area just below where the arm meets the shoulder. Any number of throws can be applied for self-defense purposes. With some experience, you will find that if you don't pull uke out of the head first dive into the mat, some damage can be expected.

    Kicking (Yes, Ana is right about being a girl, especially for kata ate) is never a great idea anyway, unless the attacker is on all fours throwing up, then lifting a foot a few inches may not be too dangerous. But, a kick to the knee, can off-balance enough to get the big, tall guy off-balanced one way or the other for a rear or forward throw.

    Even, if you believe judo to be "just a sport" most find that they had been learning self-defense all along, it just wasn't called that. And, most large tournaments, such as the USJudo Inc., Jr. Olympics here a couple of weeks ago, kata is almost always part of the tournament.

    If the latter is true, and it is, kata, Kodokan Goshin Jutsu, kime no kata, etc., is being taught even at "sportified" clubs.

    As a side note, California was first in the over all tournament, taking the most firsts, seconds and thirds, and all kata championships. If you still think there is no self-defense in the kata, try doing kata at a rapid, hard pace. If you haven't had the crap knocked out of you, well, it's there, just open your eyes before they are closed for you.

    Yes, Laly, last warning, use your full name to sign your posts or they will be edited/deleted with no warning, or none after this one, anyway.


    Mark

  8. #8
    Hissho Guest

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    Atemi are in the kata, but even Kano thought that its practice had fallen behind as compared to the randori no waza. He was talking about formulating a method of randori allowing atemi in something like 1926, perhaps to specifically address that falling behind?

    Seeing the kata, I think Kano was correct. The atemi in general seems stilted and unrealistic, as does some of the goshin waza. That may be less to do with the kata and more to do with the fact that generations of people practicing them don't know how to hit.

    That being said - there are extensive atemi within randori that many judoka do and may not even be aware of, and that many non-judoka probably don't even see.

    Mark mentioned kicking. I personally feel Judo is one of the better low kicking arts around. Many sweeps either turn into leg kicks, or are simply done as leg kicks with no pretensions of sweeps by some judoka out there. This in full view of judges during shiai and it seems to me they are simply considered sweep attempts. Main goal is still kuzushi, which as Mark rightly implies is how you want it to be self defense wise.

    Grip fighting allows for interesting takes on atemi as well as on entries to such. Watch some people grip fight and try sweeps and it looks like they are sparring with karate!

    Atemi off the grip is commonly done, and even taught by some as competition technique. Osoto gari contains a nice slam to the chin - even if it is done with the collar in hand. Other throws contain elbow strikes or hits to the side of the head. Not done AS atemi, but if you recognize them it would take little adjustment to use them as such.

    Shoulder jacks and other full body hits are also common, partly as will just naturally happen in a clinch grappling art, and partly as a way to set up and enter into certain techniques.

    Mind you, this is all within the sport technique, as legally done in competition. Judoka just need to separate out what they are already doing, make certain things more practical to self defense or more adapted to no-gi. With the addition of proper instruction in goshin jutsu (in terms of mindset, and proper understanding/use of/defense against weapons) and a more realistic take on its training, the two approaches go hand in hand toward making a very effective close quarters combat art.

    Kit

  9. #9
    bruceb Guest

    Default It is coming back ...

    Judo chop?

    Well, it has always been used for the combat version/ application of judo, and it is coming back in disguise .... as a pressure point strike, which it always was in the first place.

    Now, if I could see your sword hand, I might be able to figure out if it is correct, in that a correctly held hand can use any part of the hand to reach a pressure point, where an incorrectly held hand will not.

    hmmmm ... too much to go into with words.

    Make your teacher tell you what you need to know, and if they don't know ... go find out.

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    How can we be mentioning Judo chop and not bring up sensei James T. Kirk? His instructional videos on the subject are still some of the best. Plus, he teaches a mean tomoe nage.

    Someone mentioned the strikes being "stilted" in their application in kata. . I'd agree with that, but add that they look stilted to some degree in every kata in every art - it's the nature of a structured pattern.

    Rob Thornton

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    I can't remember where I read this (somewhere on the internet) so it may or may not be true. But, the article had talked about how Judo had changed from it's emphasis when it started till now. It talked about how many of the Kodokan students would get into fights to test it and also if they couldn't knock out there opponent with a "judo chop" right off it meant that they had a lot more work to do.

    Also, if you look at the old WWII combatives it was based on the "old" kodokan methods and included the strikes, throws from the kata.
    "Hard won, buy easy lost. True karate does not stay where it is not being used."

  12. #12
    boku_wa Guest

    Red face

    sensei james t kirk? of course, his chops were always to the neck or shoulders. that's also what i perceive the chops to be. in retrospect, it probably is wiser to have done away with it; otherwise, there would be many literally "unnerved" judo students walking around after randori.

    i would also agree that there are opportunities for atemi in randori, but it's not the blatant strike such as the "judo chop". to keep it legal in shiai, i would consider them as "bumps" rather than strikes to enable kuzushi. :-)

    now, i thought the leg sweeping bit is questionable. isn't there some revised rule that states you can't just keep pounding someone's leg/feet unless you truly intend to sweep?

    thanks for the informative discussion.

    laly

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    Yes, there's definitely a point where things cease to be a foot sweep and become only a repeated strikes to the opponents' shins. Where that point is depends on the quality of the referee.

    Rob Thornton

  14. #14
    Michael Neal Guest

    Default Re: It is coming back ...

    Originally posted by bruceb
    Judo chop?

    Well, it has always been used for the combat version/ application of judo, and it is coming back in disguise .... as a pressure point strike, which it always was in the first place.

    Now, if I could see your sword hand, I might be able to figure out if it is correct, in that a correctly held hand can use any part of the hand to reach a pressure point, where an incorrectly held hand will not.

    hmmmm ... too much to go into with words.

    Make your teacher tell you what you need to know, and if they don't know ... go find out.
    The idea of hitting pressure points in a mobile fighting situation is pretty unrealistic in my opinion. Very few of them actually work that well.

  15. #15
    Hissho Guest

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    Originally posted by boku_wa

    i would also agree that there are opportunities for atemi in randori, but it's not the blatant strike such as the "judo chop". to keep it legal in shiai, i would consider them as "bumps" rather than strikes to enable kuzushi. :-)

    now, i thought the leg sweeping bit is questionable. isn't there some revised rule that states you can't just keep pounding someone's leg/feet unless you truly intend to sweep?

    This is a good illustration of the limits on Judo, and how it is viewed both from within and ouside.

    Those "bumps" are atemi. Fully body atemi, shoulder strokes, what have you. It is too limiting to see only more blatant strikes as atemi waza - I am trying to expand on that concept and show that what exists within randori and shiai waza, but with a different mindset in terms of combatives, CAN be done as atemi in a more blatant manner.

    Same RE: the leg attacks. I have seen (and felt) guys basically Thai kick their opponents repeatedly in the legs, while coming to grips. It affects balance and have seen it not called as illegal, nor mentioned that it would be in randori (when many people are all to eager to tell you that what you just did was illegal). Often, after all, sweeps LOOK like kicks that look like sweeps that look like kicks, if you follow me.

    Such a thing CAN be either or both when applied as such in a combative context - especially in a self defense context where an attacker is not familiar with leg attacks. They can be quite devastating, though more mentally and in terms of initiative than physically.

    Again, I am trying to expand the vision outside of what is or is not legal, may or may not be called such by a ref, etc. That is lookinin order to apply what we are already doing in a more combative, and percussive as far as atemi goes, context.

    Good Discussion.

    Kit

    BTW- I think Shatner was actually ranked in Judo...

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