Hakutsuru in Okinawa

[Black]

I have heard a lot about Hakutsuru and even seen someone demonstrate Soken's Hakutsuru once or twice. I am just wondering if anyone has any information about people still doing Hakutsuru in Okinawa?

It seems that there are lots of people doing it in North America and so I just wondered who knows about what the status of Hakutsuru is in Okinawa.

Just curious

Tim Black

[reeves]

Tim,

I have also seen several people in the U.S. practice Hakutsuru. These karate-ka belonged to the Shorinkan which doesn't list Hakutsuru as one of their official kata. Also, I have never heard of Hanshi Nakazoto performing this kata. This leads me to believe that they are learning this form from some other lineage. Is this form coming from the Matsumura Seito lineage?

Thanks,
Matt Reeves

[Pavel Dolgachov]

As I know, there was Hakutsuru from Gokenki line. Matayoshi Shimpo studied under him. I saw video with his perfomance. Many of Matayoshi's students practise it.

[Paihequan]

I would seriously doubt anyone claiming to teach Okinawan Hakutsuru nowadays as the subject has become so muddied by those claiming to know the art.

As I understand it, the so-called "Crane" of the Matayoshi style is actually based upon and or contains it's connection to the Golden Rooster/Chicken style of boxing.

Soken Hohan's Hakutsuru is I believe his own creation based upon his experiences with Taiwanese Crane Boxers who visited Okinawa (in particular the Feeding Crane and Playing Crane styles seem most evident).

I seriously doubt that any Westerner teaches and fully understands this form.

On Okinawa I believe that Mitsuo Inoue and Kosei Nishihira may hold the Soken Hakutsuru.

[Black]

Thanks to everyone for their replies, especially to Ron for that last post regarding Soken's Hakutsuru in Okinawa.

I assumed that there would be a deep lineage in Okinawa due to the sheer numbers of Hakutsuru practitioners in the United States.

Ron - do you have any further information on the Hakutsuru teachers that you mention in your post above?

Thanks,
Tim Black.

[Black]

Ken -

Thanks for your reply. Do you happen to know who those teachers in Okinawa were that taught the Canadians you know?

Sincerely,
Tim Black

[Paihequan]

I have seen Hokama Sensei's Hakutsuru and it is very much connected to the "Playing Crane"

There is a Goju Hakutsuru as taught by Toguchi and made up of various Goju-related forms.

Honestly, I feel that although there may be quite a few "crane" people in the States, few really understand the art in the deeper sense. Many have tacked on a "crane" form here or there to add something mystical to their teachings. Others have taken existing Chinese/Taiwanese crane forms and severely modified them to suit their own agendas. They lack knowledge of the Ji Shou Fighting Applications, the four essentials or poems of Crane-Fist, the two-person drills, the Qigong aspects. Most simply walk through forms thinking they are doing "White Crane"

Most within Matsumuru Seito seeks out the "Holy Grail" of the Hakutsuru not realising that it really has little connection to the actual Matsumura lineage and more of a connection/origin to Soken Hohan himself.

Nishihara and Mitsuo Inoue do not teach publically.

[Paihequan]

Lee, Do I know you? Have you ever met or trained with me? I don't think so. Please keep your ill-informed comments to yourself.

Yes I am a "Journeyman" as it is the journey that matters!

Good to see that you practice E-Budo's rules such as treating all members with respect. Sorry mate but I'll not buy into your so obvious petty political aganda

All the best

[Paihequan]

Looking at the subject of discussion and not the personalities involved, it's noted that those who have studied the Matsumura Seito (Machimura Suidi) art all have a different version of the Hakutsuru passed on by Soken Sensei.

Some have made modifications or alterations to the pedagogy of the transmission of this form based upon their own experiences (or lack of) in relation to the actual form. Many of them cross-trained with others who lay claim to the form and have taken away from this and added of their own experiences.

Of interest is the form as practiced in Argentina which bears little similarity to that of Soken on film. It, while also touted as being the one "Matsumura Hakutsuru" bears a very strong resemblance to the Matayoshi Kingaryu..

Add to this equation the various off-shoots of "Hakutsuru Sho Chu & Dai" as well as the so-called "Hakutsuru-Mei" or "Wife's Kata" and one soon comes to see just how muddied the Matsumura Hakutsuru waters have become.

To be truly representative Paihe or Crane-Fist the art must contain at it's heart the Hequan Quan Jue which revolve around four main principles: T'un, Chen, Fou, and T'u. Without these, one cannot claim that the art represented is Crane.

In addition, Djuan Sen is of paramount importance and brings the evasive principles of the Crane into play. On a deeper level Djuan Sen involves "Body-Change" and "Change-Body" ----- two entirely different yet no less important principles inherent in all Crane-Fist.

In addition Crane-Fist embodies and utilises Djuan Jin, Rou Jin, Ting Jin, Tang Jin as amongst it's fundamental aspects as I am sure that the learned Lee (Troof) will agree.

Crane-Fist is far, far more than just a few forms that imitate a crane.

Best wishes

[Paihequan]

As stated Lee (Troof) I will not enter into your politics. I am only interested in the discussion taking place not the personalities involved. You know very little about me or my current studies and associations. You say a great deal about yourself each time you post.

Ken, Thank you for your posts.

Yes the art of Ti has had an influence on the cultural exchange of Chinese art on Okinawa that much is true. Sadly much has been lost or modified.

A further modification has taken place when the arts went across the pond to America and other countries. Sometimes this modification has been inytentional sometimes it has taken place inout of reflection of the personalities involved.

This has happened to the Matsumura Hakutsuru. One need only look at Nishihira's Matsumura in comparison with others to note a very strong difference. The high Crane Stepping methods and focus on the internal aspects in comparison with others who do a more rigid Nihon-styled type of movement.

We have Sandoval, Lindsey and his one time associate Chandler, then we have Master Kise, Coffman, Garrett and many others. Most of these people lay claim to the Matsumura Hakutsuru but each teach it differently. Which one is right? None as they are all teaching their own interpretation based upon their various experiences. To say only one of these individuals has the one true Matsumura Hakutsuru is wrong.

Body-Change and Change-Body are two entirely different concepts within traditional Paihemen/Paihequan. One deals with the change in position in relation to the opponents action. The other deals more with causing an change in the relationship that exists between the defender and opponent on a very high level . This is directly related to the Huagong principle and action.

All White Crane-Fist forms embody the following "essentials": Sinking, Swallowing, Floating, Spitting, Lifting, Rebounding, and most importantly of all Softness ("Rou-Jin") and Listening ("Ting Jin" …. reading the opponents intentions and energy). The main characteristics of Paihequan are relaxed movements, flapping, whip-like snapping, shaking, and characteristic sound of breathing (very, very different from karate's Ibuki). This is most evident in the Calling Crane of Great Master Ruan Dong of Fuzhou, Fujian China.

Traditionally, there are very few actual Crane-Fist forms (Goon / Quan / Kata), although modern schools have devised and or resurrected numerous variations via the medium of research. A unique feature of the Crane system is the manner in which these empty-hand and weapon forms are designed. The traditional forms are comparatively short and revolve around the development of the practitioner's energy. The emphasis is on understanding the essence, the essentials and the foundations of each form. Practice of the forms stresses long, loose movements that maximize speed and chi flow as an end product.

With respect to all!

[Paihequan]

Lee (Troof): This discussion is about Hakutsuru not about you or me. Please refrain from the politics and try to keep the discussion on track. Remember one of the basic rules of E-Budo is to treat your fellow members with respect.

I'm sorry for using Chinese quanfa terms which you may not understand. However, as the Matsumura Hakutsuru is said to have its origins in the Chinese arts (Mainly Shihequan) I would think that these terms apply.

I have seen the Matsumura of Sandoval & Lindsey. I like the way in which Sandoval moves and his Bunkai is very good. He is precise and applies a great deal of internal energy in his art. Lindsey moves a little more looser than most but carries the art reasonably well. He moves in a fashion similar to Ted Lange also of the Matsumura tradition. That is loose within the movements, not as precise as the others. Chandler moves in a stiff almost robotic manner. Nishihira and his senior student Toma moves completely different from those mentioned above. In fact if anything they (Nishihira) move in a very Chinese manner, high Crane stepping through a marsh styled stepping methods and very relaxed internal delivery of the tools of their art. Very different indeed!

Each persons pedagogy is totally different. I have seen each of the above (with the exception of Nishihira) demonstrate their "versions" of the Matsumura Hakutsuru and other so-called "Hakutsuru" forms. For me the closest to that done by Soken is Sandoval, yet even his form is different from Soken's.

I have Yabiku Takaya demonstrating his take of the form on private video and it too is very close to Soken's form.

My point is this: One or two forms does not make Crane-Fist.

My best wishes to you.

[Paihequan]

Ken (Kenzo),

No I did not receive your e-mail. Please re-send it to my direct e-mail address:

tsuruken@austarnet.com.au

Looking forward to hearing from you!

[hjnorris]

Gentlemen,

May I solicit your educated opinions regarding the three Hakutsuru forms performed by John Sells' and for sale on his website at http://www.martialsource.com/cranevideos.htm?

I would very much like to hear your opinions.

Yours,

Henry Norris
Raleigh, NC USA

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Paihequan
Honestly, I feel that although there may be quite a few "crane" people in the States, few really understand the art in the deeper sense.

Excuse me,
On what experiences do you base your observation and conclusion?

I ask because it seems relevent for the conversation because you base what you say on your experiences, so it would be nice to know what they are. Do you have a lot of experience in the subject matter? Enough to make a conclusion like the one you state above?

I did a quick check, and it seems that Patrick McCarthy's opinion of you is rather low. To be exact, he made this comment on e-budo.

If I thought that they knew anything about Tomari Te, or primary research, I wouldn't have needed to ask you in the first place. Heck, these guys believe that Ron Goninan is an expert!!!!!!!!!

Ouch!!

It may be because of what you did to him that required you to write a letter of apology. I found that as well.

From: Ron Goninan
To: Patrick McCarthy
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 12:14 PM

To Mr. Patrick McCarthy,
Please find enclosed my sincere letter of personal apology for the years of slander, underhanded behaviour and plagiarizing your copyrighted work.
Having long suffered a lack of self-esteem, I have always wanted to be something I was not. An inflated ego fueled my ambition to seek out the kind of mail-order recognition that I could easily use to establish a guise of importance, made me feel important. Coming from a small community in country NSW, this worked particularly well and made me appear as if I were a big fish in a small bowl. Jumping from style to style over the years presented an opportunity for me to misrepresent my actual experience with each new instructor I met. So used to this did I become that I even began to believe it myself. Writing articles for martial arts magazines helped to generate a little more publicity, which not only solidified my opinion of myself it also gave me another way with which to accredited myself. My martial arts studies have been both diverse and dotted with false claims of outlandish rank from un-credible sources. I actually purchased a *Soke* rank from Rod Sarconoski's Juko-kai for $1500, and then several years later accepted an 8th dan Hanshi license from a complete charlatan in Okinawa named Takaya Yabiku, after only ever training with him once. It's probably of little interest to you, but this long and lonely road has finally caught up to me and I am now choosing to expose all, in an effort to escape the enormous chain anxiety that is negatively effecting every aspect of the life I truly want to live.
I have knowingly carried out self-aggrandizing, unscrupulous and underhanded activities all in an effort to establish a reputation for myself, undermine your good name and protect my untenable background. I now regret this greatly. Such activities have included making pseudonym e-mail addresses in order to praise myself and criticize you, deliberately plagiarize your copyrighted material and present it as if it was my own, undermining your enviable reputation, and fabricating a history that did not accurately reflect my true martial arts background.
I would like it to be known that I am renouncing all the derogatory comments that I have either said or written about you. It was just plain wrong and, as untrustworthy as I have been in the past, I am now appealing to your compassion to forgive me for my reprehensible actions.
In truth, I am a great admirer or your accomplishments within the field of the martial arts and have, like so many others, been inspired by your work. I greatly admire your way of doing things, your research, the way you write, and the way in which you operate your organization. You've really had more of an influence on me then you may know. In a great many ways I have set you as a personal idol of mine. I idolized your work and the respect that was afforded to you and often wished to "be just like you." I guess that this is fairly evident. The problem was the way that I (incorrectly) set about to model my own life on yourself and your own research.
It is my sincere hope and desire that you will accept my apology. Whatever hardships I am presently undergoing are purely the results of my own doing and my family have suffered enough shame and heartbreak as a result of my deplorable actions. I beg that you accept this and allow me the opportunity to work towards coming clean and "making it right again," without the threat of litigation looming over my head.
Sincerely,
Ron Goninan

So if I understand it, when you were facing litigation you said that you basically knew nothing and did things like misrepresent your rank, buying rank and training under known frauds. Now that the litigation is not looming over your shoulder, you seem to be making statments that indicate that you have the experience and knowledge to judge what others do as if you were an expert in the field. As you can see, your background in this matter is a matter of concern since you base what you say not on facts that can be chekced by others, but on your judgement which is based on experience. So your experience is a matter of discussion for now.

[Troll Basher]

Originally posted by Paihequan
I have Yabiku Takaya demonstrating his take of the form on private video and it too is very close to Soken's form.

Oh brother!.........Yabiku Takaya....... for those of you not in the know, is the man that sells fake Hohan Soken Certificates down in Okinawa.
He is also the man Ron claims on his own board as well as Martial Talk to have trained "Extensively" with when in actual fact it was more like a couple hours for a few days.

Ron has been an uneducated pest on this board and some others. And for questioning him on certain aspects of his training and knowledge on those boards I received a bombardment of spam email from him to the extant that I had to block several of his email accounts.