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Thread: Shindo Yoshin ryu / Shinto Yoshin ryu jujutsu

  1. #61
    Guest

    Default

    Hi,

    I guess I could go on and on...but I'll keep it short.

    Doug is right. All the different names/spellings are the same art. Descended from Yoshin ryu, Yoshin Koryu and Tenjin Shinyo ryu. Shindo Yoshin ryu (as we spell it) is the same art Otsuka Hironori combined with Okinawan Karate to create Wado ryu. It is commonly believed that Otsuka Hironori was "the" headmaster of SYR. This is not true. Three different lineages exist. The mainline was headed by Matsuoka Tatsuo, not Ohtsuka. Otsuka inherited the Nakayama line which today survives as Wado ryu Jujutsu Kempo, a companion art to Wado ryu Karate

    I hope that helps,

    Toby Threadgill, Soryushin Dojo
    Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu

  2. #62
    hix Guest

    Default

    I sought the same information as you.

    Here is a great link that should answer many questions you have. It has a very interesting history section.




    www.shinyokai.com/jujutsu.htm

    Good luck

  3. #63
    Jim_Jude Guest

    Default History of Shindo Yoshin-Ryu System...

    http://www.bugei.com/takemura.html

    Great interview of Takamura Yukiyoshi about growing up with Budo in the family.

  4. #64
    Mike B. Johnson Guest

    Default Shintoyoshin ryu ?????

    Hi ,

    Is anyone here familiar with a group in Columbia, SC. claiming to teach "shintoyoshin ryu" jujutsu? It all seems very odd to me as it just appears to be a typical bunch of karate guys in all the photos.

    Is this supposed to be the same art as Shindo Yoshin ryu? The reason I ask is that it is my understanding that there are no dan ranks recognized in Shindo Yoshin ryu. These guys are claiming 7th - 8th and 5th Dans and stuff. If these guys seriously expect us to think they are legit I gotta ask, who awarded these dan ranks.

    Oh, There's also a pretty funny picture of a guy named Troy Price identified as a 5th dan instructor in shintoyoshin ryu standing next to a framed makimono. I guess it's supposed to say Shintoyoshin ryu jujutsu. The kanji is wrong as far as I can tell. He's using the wrong kanji for willow. The way he has it written it says Shintoyanagishin ryu. The character for Yo and Yanagi both mean willow but are written and pronounced differently. I could be wrong about this but I don't think so.

    I have forwarded an e-mail to Sensei Threadgill of the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu to see what he knows about this group? He hasn't responded yet.

    ??????????

  5. #65
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    Default Shintoyoshin ryu Jiujitsu

    Mike,
    I know this group well. They are not your, "typical bunch of karate guys".
    The style is Shintoyoshin ryu. Sensei Price is an excellent instructor who has traveled and trained around the world. He holds Dan grades in several arts and styles. You may want to check out his books!

    I do not remember the entire lineage, but I think this is part.Uki Takeshi Sensei passed on the art to Douglas Grose(Menkyu Kaiden), who taught Steven Roensch, etc.

    As to the Kanji, Mr. Price's wife is of Chinese ancestry and I know that his makimono are hand brushed in China and/or Japan.

    The Columbia School is one of the best I have trained with. If you have doubts e-mail Sensei Price I'm sure he can answer better than I, or better yet come check out the International Martial Arts Symposium in Columbia, S.C. October 15th, 16th, and 17th and ask Sensei Roensch directly.

    Hope this helps.

    R. Kite
    Budoka 34
    "Study hard and all things can be accomplished; give up and you will amount to nothing".

    -Yamaoka Tesshu

  6. #66
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    Default This has been discussed before...

    Search this forum and all will become clear.
    Will Schutt

  7. #67
    Mike B. Johnson Guest

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    Okay,

    I got this from the FAQ section at the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai website. It is appropriately PC but begs several serious questions.

    "The American Jujutsu & Karate Association, Shintoyoshin ryu is currently headed by Sensei Douglas Grose. Details about this ryuha are somewhat sketchy but it appears to be an offshoot of the Wado ryu founded by an ex-student of Hidenori Ohtsuka named Uke Takeski. As Takeski is not a properly spelled Japanese name, his actual name is not known. It is stated that Mr Takeski taught Shnitoyoshin Jujutsu in the Las Vegas area around 1942 to Mr. Grose while he was then in the airforce. Mr. Grose was eventually awarded a shodan by Mr. Takeski. This ryuha demonstrates significant influence from modern karate, judo and aikido. Apparently, due to this influence, much of the original Shindo Yoshin ryu waza and okuden has been abandoned. The association, however, is strong and and its instructors are reportedly quite competent within their own curriculum."

    So,

    This Takeski guy trained in Wado ryu not Shindo Yoshin ryu. He was teaching Japanese martial arts to an American service guy named Gross in 1942? Mr Gross didn’t receive a Menkyo Kaiden in Shindo Yoshin ryu. That’s clearly impossible since he was actually a student of Wado ryu. And he supposably received a Shodan in Shindo Yoshin ryu even though there are no dan ranks awarded in this art. So how is Mr Gross promoting guys to 8th dan? On top of all this it appears that what is being taught by these guys is no longer actual Japanese Jujutsu but they are good at whatever it is they are teaching?

    What is going on with this? I'd really like to hear from the AJKA guys about this. I haven’t yet heard from Sensei Threadgill ( who really does have a Menkyo Kaiden from Yukiyoshi Takamura ). I am patiently waiting for his reply.

    BTW. I had a Japanese friend of mine check out the kanji on the makimono in the picture with Mr Price . It is indeed incorrect. The kanji as written is pronounced Shindoyanagishin ryu, or shindodewshin ryu, not Shindoyoshin ryu. It is definitely misspelled. I actually found a Japanese website that shows the correct kanji.The kanji character for willow is definitely different..

  8. #68
    MarkF Guest

    Default

    FYI: Here is the link to Toby's explanation of the similarities and differences between Shinto Yoshin Ryu, Shindo Yoshin Ryu, and the connection to Wado ryu karate and Wado Jujutsu.

    http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...nto+yoshin+ryu


    Mark

    PS: Toby is the one with the username "Guest."

  9. #69
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    Wink Shinto Yoshin ryu jiujitsu

    Mark,

    The story I was told was that this is a broken lineage because of the reasons you listed (Uke Takeshi being one of Otsukas Wado Kai students).
    I have never heard anyone claim it as a traditional ryuha, but I have heard it referd to as genbudo.
    The current waza are easily found in Sensei Prices books.

    Sensei Prices' e-mail is listed on the site you quoted feel free to e-mail him.

    Oh btw, I gave the wrong dates for the International Martial Arts Symposium. The correct dates are October 3rd 4th and 5th.

    R. Kite
    Budoka 34
    "Study hard and all things can be accomplished; give up and you will amount to nothing".

    -Yamaoka Tesshu

  10. #70
    MarkF Guest

    Default

    Oh, I know now that it is just as you say, I just did a bit of a search to get Toby's statements into the thread, and (I don't remember if that is the thread in which Toby stated that it was probably gendai or genbudo) but in many ways it is so I haven't a problem with it.

    In fact, I skipped some threads in which I may have commented as I don't really think the fact as to whether it is gendai or koryu is really all that important.

    Toby has commented on the fact that even his MK in Takamura-ha SYR is gen-budo. He actually was stating it as a mere technicality and I agree.

    If you haven't, use the same search words I did, 'Shinto Yoshin ryu' and you'll come up with what is left of those threads. There are a few of them in which it is at least mentioned.

    I mean as a site search on E-budo, not just this forum. There were others, but as Toby has been asked about it, I thought posting a thread on the subject in which he comments would be good for the thread.

    Hey, I'm one wild and helpful guy (to paraphrase Steve Martin, just a bit).


    Mark

  11. #71
    Mike B. Johnson Guest

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    Hello,

    I just received this letter from Sensei Threadgill concerning the AJKA. It pretty much sets the record straight and clarify’s most of my nagging questions. Lots of detail.

    __________________________________________________

    From: tthreadgill@shinyokai.com 8-14-2003 MDST,

    Hello Mike,

    I am familiar with Troy Price and the lineage of the organization to which he belongs, the AJKA, headed by Douglas Grose. Although a sincere group of dedicated individuals, the AJKA is mostly teaching Shindo Yoshin ryu in name only. The art as taught by the AJKA is only distantly, if at all related to authentic classical jujutsu. I have corresponded with Mr Grose several times over the years. He has been very polite and up front in the letters he has sent to me. His story while compelling presents many difficulties.

    The most problematic is the actual name of his teacher, Uke Takeski. Since this is not a properly anglicized Japanese name, his actual identity cannot be confirmed ( Uki Takeshi? ). This begs a serious question that must be addressed. Although supposeably a student of Wado ryu under Hironori Ohtsuka, under whose authority was this ultimately unidentifiable gentleman teaching Shindo Yoshin ryu? Wado Kai’s Shingo Ohgami in his research on Wado ryu’s origins, has stated to me that Hironori Ohtsuka did not promote anyone in Shindo Yoshin ryu prior to the founding of Wado ryu. To further compromise AJKA historical claims, the contention that Shindo Yoshin ryu “ lay dormant” until revived by Uke Takeski is easily contradicted. The Ohtsuka / Takamura ryuha and the mainline / Matsuoka ryuha were active and under the direction of men holding Menkyo Kaiden with direct successions traceable to SYR’s founder Katsunosuke Matsuoka. Shindo Yoshin ryu was not in need of reviving.

    Concerning the curriculum, in written correspondence directly with Mr Grose he confirmed that much of what is taught today within the AJKA as well as the waza reflected in the manuals produced by Mr Troy Price are not familiar to him. Furthermore, the bukiwaza and traditional kata practised in the existing ryuha have either been discarded or were never transmitted to Mr Grose. Mr Grose reiterated to me that after the war he taught what he learned from Mr Takeski, based largely on a couple of kata called Tora Sho and Tora Dai. I have not heard of these specific kata and they are not listed in the traditional SYR mokuroku I have in my possession. They must be inventions of either Hironori Ohtsuka or Uke Takeski. By Mr Grose’s description they sound more like Okinawan Karate solo forms instead of the two man kata prevalent in classical Nihon jujutsu.

    So evidently, a small core of original jujutsu ate waza taught by Uke Takeski has over time been combined with liberal doses of Judo, Karate and Aikido, to in effect, fill what was an incomplete cirruculum. I must reiterate there is nothing wrong with this transformation as long as the student / practitioner understands that the art as taught in the AJKA does not really reflect traditional Shindo Yoshin ryu. AJKA SYR is therefore a modern & eclectic compliation of many different arts that are historically and technically disconnected from virtually any SYR roots.

    A common misconception accepted by many is that Hironori Ohtsuka became the headmaster of all SYR when he was awarded a menkyo kaiden. This misunderstanding persists because Ohtsuka’s menkyo kaiden came from Tatsusaburo Nakayama who is frequently and incorrectly identified in Wado ryu literature as Shindo Yoshin ryu’s 3rd headmaster. Although Tatsusaburo Nakayama was awarded a menkyo kaiden this did not make him the 3rd headmaster of the mainline tradition. Both he and Ohbata Shigeta headed their own separate ryuha . The Shindo Yoshin ryu mainline was actually under the control of the genuine 3rd headmaster, Matsuoka Tatsuo, grandson of the founder, Matsuoka Katsunosuke. Matsuoka Tatsuo died in 1989 out living Ohtsuka, while still functioning as the headmaster of the mainline tradition.

    The Takamura ryuha traces its history back to SYR's founder (Ryuso) Matsuoka Katsunosuke. In 1895 Matsuoka Katsunosuke issued a menkyo kaiden to Ohbata Shigeta, grandfather of Takamura Yukiyoshi. This line was officially passed to Takamura Yukiyoshi by Ohbata Shigeta. In the 1960's the ryuha’s name was changed from the Ohbata ha Shindo Yoshin ryu to the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu. This name change was formalized to acknowledge organizational and technical adjustments instituted outside the mainline tradition. In this way there would be no confusion between the Takamura ha and the mainline lineage. In my opinion the AJKA should at least adopt a similar terminology since no evidence of authentic succession exists for the AJKA and their teachings in no way reflect mainline SYR.

    In notes I have read it appears that Matsuoka Sensei and Takamura Sensei continued friendly correspondence as late as 1982 or 1983. Matsuoka Tatsuo died in 1989 without formally appointing a successor. The mainline survives today under the direction of Dr. Ryozo Fujiwara as the Shindo Yoshin ryu Domonkai. Whether the mainline/SYR Domonkai will survive past Dr Fujiwara remains to be seen.

    I must emphasize that I have no reason to believe that the system taught by the AJKA is not a good system, an effec tive system or one that it is not well performed by its instructors. It just isn’t representative of genuine Shindo Yoshin ryu.

    For more information about the Takamura Ha Shindo Yoshin ryu please visit our website at www.shinyokai.com. Please also visit the website at www.aikidojournal.com to access Mr Stan Pranin’s excellent online magazine which includes an interview and several essays written by Yukiyoshi Takamura Sensei.

    Toby Threadgill / Kaicho
    Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai

    __________________________________________________

    Mr Kite,

    Where did you get the information that Mr Grose holds a Menkyo Kaiden? I'm just curious. If its just mysterious info from memory I understand. I’m over 50.

    Mike B. Johnson or BJ

  12. #72
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    Smile Good stuff!

    Mike,

    I believe it was listed on the same site you quoted earlier in this thread. I also believe I've have heard this several times. Of course, while not quite 50, the many times I've been dropped on my head may have something to do with it.
    One question I've asked several times of my instructors, including Tachi Price, is why Mr. Mols book claims the lineage as broken/ended, if several schools still claim it, including the Takamura Ha line?

    BTW thanks for posting Sensei Threadgills' response.
    Gengai or Ryuha I still think you'd have a great time training with us in October.

    In Budo,
    R. Kite
    Budoka 34
    "Study hard and all things can be accomplished; give up and you will amount to nothing".

    -Yamaoka Tesshu

  13. #73
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    Default

    why Mr. Mols book claims the lineage as broken/ended, if several schools still claim it, including the Takamura Ha line?
    He’s wrong. While it’s a fine book it is not the be all and end all of information about Japanese jujutsu.
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

  14. #74
    Mike B. Johnson Guest

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    Mr Kite,

    As alluded to by Mr Walker, Serge Mol's book "Classical Fighting Arts of Japan" suffers some nagging problems. Although an overall decent attempt, I believe Mr Mol simply overeached in his effort. There are more than several historical omissions, contradictions and outright mistakes in this book. Several of these errors can be found in the sections of the book concerning the Yoshin ryu, Yoshin Koryu,Tenjin Shinyo ryu as well as the Shindo Yoshin ryu. If you think about it , it is easy to see why problems surrounding the history of these schools exist. Yoshin is such a commonly used name in japanese budo schools that tracing exact lineages without intimate knowledge of their curriculums and overlapping histories leave one exposed to eventual errors. As an example, it is widely known that Hironori Ohtsuka, the founder of Wado ryu received a menkyo kaiden in Shindo Yoshin ryu in 1921. This man was one of the only budoka in Japan to ever be declared a national living treasure by the emperor. In Mr Mol's book, this budo giant and the art of his founding, Wado ryu are hardly mentioned and then it only states that Ohtsuka "studied" Shindo Yoshin ryu.

    Studied?

    I think receiving a menkyo kaiden qualifies as a bit more than just studying so this is clearly a critical omission in Shindo Yoshin ryu's history. The fact that Shindo Yoshin ryu was instrumental in the founding of one of the world's most popular styles of karate is worthy of more than a casual blip.

    I understand there are some serious questions surrounding Kukishin ryu as well but not being familiar with this system I cannot elaborate on them.

    I have asked Mr Threadgill to follow this forum if possible. He stated that he would scan it and forward any corrections that he felt were appropriate. Yesterday I received a copy of an incredible historical document from him on Shindo Yoshin ryu. It included a mention of his teachers contacts with Tobari Kazu, the now deceased female menkyo kaiden in Tenjin Shinyo ryu. Sensei Threadgill clearly has access to some amazng knowledge and historical information. Perhaps he should be enticed to write a book on Nihon Jujutsu.

    BTW, You guys in Denver should be banging the doors down up in Evergreen. Sensei Threadgill told me that he is still accepting applications for the Shindo Yoshin Kai Headquarters Dojo. Evidently classes there are not yet filled. Heck! If I only lived in Colorado.

    BJ

  15. #75
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    Wink I'll be there.

    Mike,

    I'll sell the house and meet you Colorado.
    Ooops the wife saw that! I'm in trouble now!

    Walker,

    Never meant to imply that it was,"the be all, end all of information on Japanese Jujutsu".
    But I will say, considering the depth of the subject(Nihon Jujutsu ryuha), it's not a bad effort either.

    R. Kite
    Budoka 34
    "Study hard and all things can be accomplished; give up and you will amount to nothing".

    -Yamaoka Tesshu

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