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Thread: Shindo Yoshin ryu / Shinto Yoshin ryu jujutsu

  1. #76
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    Hi all,

    There is something that really bothers me. The only decent book on koryu jujutsu - the first one actually- is the book by Serge Mol, a complete guide to koryu jujutsu. The book is excellent. Now what really seems strange to me is that a lot of people who post here always find something to nag about. He doesn't have this fact right, he doesn't mention someone we think should be mentioned, MY teacher should write a book (as in my teacher can beat your teacher....).
    Now what did the man actually do? - Write a very good book on a subject of interest to a lot of people here, so what's the problem? Maybe he doesn't belong to the "Budo-bunch" we all know (and most of us love)but that doesn't make his work less significant.
    He wrote the first book on koryu jujutsu in english well naturely he can't make all of us happy but we should give him the credit he deserves and that should be a lot better than what he is getting here.

    I' m a librarian by profession and a part-time jujutsu teacher - in my opinion the books by Mr. Mol are well written and based on an immense amount of research. Maybe some of us don't like the fact that he did it all by himself. Well tough luck for them.

    Best Regards,

    Johan Smits

  2. #77
    Mike B. Johnson Guest

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    Johan,

    Chill out a bit.

    Mr Mol's book is a very nice attempt on a subject we would all like to see more material on, but it contains a significant number of errors. As is evidenced in this thread people are already using it as a reference source and repeating his mistakes. Thats the problem. If you write a book which includes references to historical info and then make errors, it's going to be marginalized. Thats the heat you're in for if you write this type of book. Mr Mol should have done more "immense" research.

    Your letter reminds me of the Lovret guys trying to defend Fred Lovret's "Budo Jiten" several years back. This work was amazingly flawed. Mr Lovrets supporters tried to make the case that we should over look the flaws because it was the only source available in english. Great! A flawed dictionary. Just what everyone needs. I'll take no budo dictionary as opposed to a flawed budo dictionary anyday, thank you.

    And frankly I don't know what we're supposed to make of your comments about "the budo bunch" and the fact that "some of us" are somehow upset that Mr Mol wrote this book all by himself.

    Johan, I don't give a toot who writes what, as long as the information is accurate. Sounds to me like your problem is more related to the fact that you have an ax to grind with somebody in "the budo bunch" than our observations concerning Mr Mol's book.

    Best Regards

    BJ
    Last edited by Mike B. Johnson; 18th August 2003 at 16:19.

  3. #78
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    Hi Mike,

    No axes to grind - none - really. I'm quite happy with the "budo-bunch" but I think people should be treated equally. I do think it is presumptious to call the book by Serge Mol a "decent attempt". Many years ago it was said a book on koryu jujutsu would be impossible to write because it would be a to much work, to difficult etc, etc.
    Someone comes along who does write such a book and it is called a "decent attempt", yeah funny people.

    So - no axes to grind - maybe a book to throw at your head, but that's it.

    Happy training,


    Johan Smits

  4. #79
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    Talking Tenshin.............get it?

    Johan,

    (In my best counselors voice) I'm sensing some tension here.

    Mike, how does it make you feel when Johan says he wants to hit you in the head with a book!?

    Do they teach taisabaki for books in Koryu Jujutsu?

    R. Kite
    Budoka 34
    "Study hard and all things can be accomplished; give up and you will amount to nothing".

    -Yamaoka Tesshu

  5. #80
    Mike B. Johnson Guest

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    Johan,

    You wrote:

    >>I do think it is presumptious to call the book by Serge Mol a "decent attempt"<<

    I disagree, as does my dictionary.
    _______________________

    de·cent, ( 'dE-s&nt ) adjective ,

    Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin decent-, decens, present participle of decEre to be fitting; akin to Latin decus honor, dignus worthy, Greek dokein to seem, seem good. Date: 1539

    4 : fairly good but not excellent . well executed but imperfect.

    ________________________


    at·tempt, (&-'tem(p)t) transitive verb

    Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French attempter, from Latin attemptare, from ad- + temptare to touch, try. Date: 14th century

    1 : to make an effort to do, accomplish, solve, or effect.

    _________________________


    I stand by my words and my dictionary despite your "decent attempt" at debating them.

    Mr Kite. I've never studied koryu jujutsu, only judo. I'd like to experience koryu jujutsu but I didn't need any taisabaki. The book didn't even come close.

    You guys are a barrel of laughs.

    BJ

  6. #81
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    Default Judo

    Mike,

    Don't take me to seriously (I don't), that was just my meager attempt at humor.

    But keep your eyes open, just in case his aim improves.

    BTW, I agree, it was a decent effort.

    R. Kite
    Budoka 34
    "Study hard and all things can be accomplished; give up and you will amount to nothing".

    -Yamaoka Tesshu

  7. #82
    MarkF Guest

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    Let's see if I can add to the dictionary tossing here:

    I find Mr. Mol's book to be 'interesting.'


    Mark

  8. #83
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    Hi Mike,

    You got me.

    Happy landings,

    Johan Smits

  9. #84
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    Default Takamura Yukiyoshi on tameshigiri

    Toby Threadgill just posted a really interesting piece written by his late teacher Takamura Yukiyoshi over on Aikidojournal.com. The article talks about the role of tameshigiri within Shindo Yoshin Ryu and the very serious light that it takes this study. The article was written in 1978, one can only wonder what Takamura Sensei would have thought of how common tameshigiri has become, even among schools that have not done this practice historically.

    The article is here.

    Thoughts? Comments?
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
    Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
    Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)

  10. #85
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    I think Joe Svinth still has a standing challenge -- his untrained sugarcane plantation worker with machete vs. any and all comers.

    What really interests me is Takamura sensei's worldview. Some may have heard the storys about a certain "violent sword" that has been kept by the kai "at rest" after Takamura was cut badly by it during a training session.

    In this video of a sword polisher he alludes to the ability to purify the soul of a sword through polishing. Interesting resonance.
    http://www.channelj.co.jp/meta/intr1...a_e_020204.asx
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

  11. #86
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    Cool link Doug, though I thought the challenge was a homeless sugarcane plantation worker with a bottle of rum stand all challengers.
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
    Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
    Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)

  12. #87
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    Wow.

    I've never read anything like this before. I wonder how many other people in the sword community share his views?

    What's a harai gushi?
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  13. #88
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    Yeah, while I approach tameshigiri as a serious aspect to my training, after reading the article, I certainly feel like I'm not treating it as seriously as Takamura Sensei would appreciate.
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
    Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
    Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)

  14. #89
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    Thanks for posting that Mr. Moses. My Sensei was just talking about Takamura sensei and how he viewed tamashigiri, katanas last night. Its great to actually read this essay. Takamura sensei was really quite amazing on how he viewed the world and things that happened in the world. I have always believed that a persons soul imprints itself in the sword. A person with a bad heart will have a sword that is always looking to bite someone.
    Its too bad that not too many schools teach Reigi with a pure heart and intent, like he did.

    Thanks again, Mr. Moses.
    Jahun Moayedzadeh

  15. #90
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    Default Shinto ...

    What's a harai gushi?
    Hi Charlie,
    Harai gushi is a short pole with strips of carefully folded paper attached to the top. It is used in Shinto purification ritual.
    I've never read anything like this before. I wonder how many other people in the sword community share his views?
    While most in the sword community regard tameshigiri as serious business, not many take the same stance as Takamura sensei. From what I have read (and this article is a clear indicator), he was quite deep in the Shinto religion. Not many outside of Japan are therefore not many outside of Japan are likely to share his views to quite that extent.

    Of course, this does not include Mr. Threadgill and the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai. It is also my opinion and supposition on it, not to be mistaken for unalterable facts.


    Cheers,
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

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