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Thread: Stainless steel???

  1. #106
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    Bump!
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

  2. #107
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    Lightbulb A Classic!

    Always a grreat read.

    BTW: I know that there are kits for identifying valuable metals such as gold and silver. I think there may even be kits for identifying the relative weights in alloys though I may be mistaken.

    Are there similar kits for assessing the quality of metals used in modern, readily available MA weapons? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  3. #108
    Dan Harden Guest

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    George!!!
    Hoo rah...!
    I have nothing to say.
    Happy new year big guy.

    cheers and thanks
    Dan

  4. #109
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    Originally posted by Dan Harden
    I have nothing to say.

    ...A temporary condition, I assure you.
    heh heh

    It's swell to have this fascinating thread in easy reach now. Thanks, George.
    Cady Goldfield

  5. #110
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    Originally posted by Geoff.
    Are stainless steel blades any good to preform tameshigiri? Any suggestions? Thanks.
    Contrary to some of the statements I've read here, there is nothing inherently wrong with SS in terms of maintaining structural integrity during live cutting. In fact, stainless steels are very tough. That said, I will add that as with any other material, the safety of the blade will be largely dependent on the skill with which it is formed (if it is in fact forged) and its heat treatment. If they are sufficiently "wrong", you will have a safety hazard on your hands. This is true of plain carbon steels as well.

    A composite SS blade with a 440 or ATS34 blade and jacket of, say 420 (just pulling alloys off top of head) could make an extremely tough blade iff made correctly.

    That said, I am still partial to low alloy tool steels such as W1, WHC, 1086, and L6. They are easier to work than stainless steels, forge weld MUCH more readily, and respond to simple heat treating procedures. And of course you can obtain a brautiful hamon if that is desired.

    I would be against an SS blade only because chances are they were not made competently and may therefore pose a safety risk. One gets what one pays for, most of the time. If you pay $99 for a stainless "katana", you will almost certianly get $99 worth, and you cannot reasonably expect such a blade to stand up to the rirgors of live cutting, especially when one's technique isn't close to perfect.

    I've not heard of it happening, but I would neither want to hear that the first 18 inches of a blade went careening through someone's skull across the dojo because the sword flew apart. These activities are dangerous enough when the weapons are the best available. There is no legitimate excuse to buy and use a crappy pseudo-weapon in the presence of other people. If you don't mind killing or maiming yourself, I certianly don't mind if you do it, but endangering others is not acceptable IMO.
    -Andy Vida

    Blacksmith, bladesmith, goldsmith

  6. #111
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    Originally posted by hg
    I have questions with some of the statements above.........


    >>The result of the folding did nothing more than to homogenize an impure product. In its time it was the best method to attain an essentially uniform carbon distribution.
    ??????????

    This is in fact the primary reason for refining the raw steel. The other main reason is grain refinement. Tamahagane as is comes out of the smelter is generally very coarse-grained, which makes for weakness.

    >As far as I read, the folding was done up to 12-14 times, so that up to about 20.000 layers formed. Folding more often was considered to produce a weaker blade.

    This is due to decarburization.

    > I rationalized that that folding was used to induce lattice defects, which prevent crystal planes from sliding and therefore yeald harder metals than the "monocrysaline" ones. An alternative would be lattice impurities
    like carbon, mangan, Vanadium. If homogenization would have been the intent, a larger number of folding would have been preferable.

    No. The ancient smiths didn't know how to prevent decarburization. Besides, with the material at hand, further refinement was not necessary. By the time you have rewelded a billet 14 times you have about 16K layers, which translates into extensive refinement of grain size, if done correctly.

    >As far as the ability to produce "harder" blades concerned: What is the optimal hardness? The harder a material, the easier it breaks, of course, the softer a material, the easier it is to cut it. Some compromise seems necessary?

    It depends on the material and what other properties one is looking to obtain. 4140 obtains its maximum toughness at a hardness of about C37, which isn't very hard. It seems most Japanese blades achieve the bese balance of hardness to toughness at C55-C58. Not extremely hard, but the blade is very tough and will survive impacts and other abuses that a harder blade will not.

    >If have seen remarks about water and oil quenching, how about blood quenching?

    Silliness.

    > If have read contradicting accounts, one was that phosphor in the blood gets included into the blade surface (gives a harder blade due to surface impurities), the other that blood has higher boiling temperature and larger heat capacity, so the cooling rate obtainable in the quenching process is considerably higher than at least water.




    Thanks
    Hans-Georg Matuttis
    -Andy Vida

    Blacksmith, bladesmith, goldsmith

  7. #112
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    Default Re: Well going on what I've read on the subject . . .

    Originally posted by Just some guy

    Me,
    According to Mr Harding's post earlier, this is because Nioi and Nie are evidence of welding flaws in the steel. Hence weaker blade.

    Nie and Nioi are largely the result of differing rates of quench. I have made blades from solid 1095 with no welds at all and have obtained strong Nie/Nioi. It's a matter of heat treat and nothing more. Welds in the blade may affect the formatio of nie/nioi, but that is more a matter of the analysis of the steel and whether the weld has significnatly influenced it.
    -Andy Vida

    Blacksmith, bladesmith, goldsmith

  8. #113
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    Originally posted by Dan Harden

    Where occindental smiths are outdone and must concede defeat is in looks. That is; when it comes to getting *everything* right, the "Japanese" forging - finishing techniques and mountings cannot be beat.
    Perhaps youu've never seen the work of Bill Fiorini. He will run with any Japanese smith you care to list. His work is superb and very true to tradition.
    -Andy Vida

    Blacksmith, bladesmith, goldsmith

  9. #114
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    Originally posted by Dan Harden


    How about a steel with carbon content aproaching that of cast iron, with 5% vanadium, and 13% chromium? Both of which produce some of the hardest carbides known..................
    that is ductile?



    *****************************


    If have seen remarks about water and oil quenching, how about blood quenching?
    If have read contradicting accounts, one was that phosphor in the blood gets included into the blade surface (gives a harder blade due to surface impurities), the other that blood has higher boiling temperature and larger heat capacity, so the cooling rate obtainable in the quenching process is considerably higher than at least water.

    Answer
    Have any idea how much blood you would need? and it wouldn't last like water or oil. There are more myths, and over-played attempts at new mediums regarding quenching then carter and his pills; urine, bodies, arsonic in water (for small tools) cutting off the hands of people who tested the water temp........blah blah blah.

    It isn't rocket science.

    Water produces a superior look in the hamon and brings out the inherent structures in the steel at the transitional zone. Too lengthy to go into tonight. However, both it and oil produce fine blades.

    Dan
    -Andy Vida

    Blacksmith, bladesmith, goldsmith

  10. #115
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    Originally posted by Dan Harden
    [B]

    How about a steel with carbon content aproaching that of cast iron, with 5% vanadium, and 13% chromium? Both of which produce some of the hardest carbides known..................
    that is ductile?
    You can call that D2

    [B]

    Answer
    Have any idea how much blood you would need? and it wouldn't last like water or oil. There are more myths, and over-played attempts at new mediums regarding quenching then carter and his pills; urine, bodies, arsonic in water (for small tools) cutting off the hands of people who tested the water temp........blah blah blah.
    Any idea what a STENCH you'd make. Your neighbors and your wife would lynch you on the spot.

    Anout the fastest quench you want on a water hardening steel is brine. If you want more violence, use superquench, but you won't have a blade left as it will shatter.
    -Andy Vida

    Blacksmith, bladesmith, goldsmith

  11. #116
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    I personally like stainless steel blade. I guess it would work well for tameshigiri.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph08 View Post
    I personally like stainless steel blade. I guess it would work well for tameshigiri.
    Hi there. Well tameshigiri is not really the purpose of the sword arts. It's facet to test both the skill of the user and test the quality of the blade he is using. So I guess you just removed one of these facets.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

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