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Thread: Stainless steel???

  1. #31
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    Dan,

    Perhaps they were caught up in the symbol of ability it portrayed on the owner when in fact they very rarely, if ever, “closed” with it.
    Your quote could very well be applied to the Japanese during the Second World War.

    A sketch of two rebel swords recovered after the Boshin Civil War (1968-69) -- or it was the Satsuma Rebellion of 1977 -- shows one to look much like a logging saw; the other is similar, but was additionally broken in two at the half-way point. There may be other sketches, but this is the only one I've seen.

    Interesting topic ... I keep expecting Joe Svinth to start talking about his magic machete at -40 degrees F. (Hi, Joe!)

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  2. #32
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Interesting topic ... I keep expecting Joe Svinth to start talking about his magic machete at -40 degrees F. (Hi, Joe!)


    OOOH
    Subzero quenching?? Whole other topic

    I should tell you about my grand machete incident. See, everything I own is razor sharp. Clearing a field, it cut through a tree and through 7/8ths of my thigh muscle. A tampon and Three tampaxes later I was driving myself to the hospital and three months of recovery.

    some martial artist huh!


    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 2nd April 2001 at 12:01.

  3. #33
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    The cut I was talking about was not bad nor did it make any funny sound. Of course I relize that sometime the cutter does not hear any sound. When someone does a really good cut, it sounds like it to the folks watching, but is often not heard by the cutter. The cut was done on beach mats, three to a roll and 6 of them across. The cut was pretty near flat, perfectly flat being the ideal and also the most difficult cut ( for most people) to make. That particular sword was first bent by a short female student who was cutting a kesa and let the sword swing to far to her side. She actually stuck the kensaki in the ground, sideways. we were outside. I was doing a fair amount of seminars then and let anyone use it. It was bent many times and the more, the easier. I of course missed a few of my own and bent it. Usually I straighten the sword over my knee but if I had access to the sword straighteners we have in the dojo I used that. Swords are also "tweaked", my word) and do not always bend in particular degree, looking along the mine, but are bent , or tweaked from edge to back. They are a little more difficult to straighten. Bob Elder
    Rich and Stress Free

  4. #34
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    Thumbs up Great Topic!

    I just want to tell everyone that this is an excellent subject of discussion. I feel very fortunate to be able to learn more about metallurgy by reading these posts. It is not a common thing to find such a dedicated group of swordsmen and bladesmiths having such a substantial conversation, and I am glad to be able to listen in!
    Krzysztof M. Mathews
    http://www.firstgearterritories.com

    Every place around the world it seemed the same
    Can't hear the rhythm for the drums
    Everybody wants to look the other way
    When something wicked this way comes

    "Jeremiah Blues, Part 1"
    Sting-The Soul Cages

  5. #35
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Krzysztof,

    I am bending to the wishes of my students and this winter will be forging with them for a day. We are not far from you. Perhaps you would care to visit. we have our regular training every sat. as well. So you could see a bit of forging and then engage in a bit of Kenjutsu.

    Dan

  6. #36
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Bob
    I was uder the impression that the sword you were dicussing returened somwhat to straight on its own
    you wrote:

    "About halfway thru the sui hei the sword blade flexed down about 30 degrees! But when the cut was finished, it was hardly bent at all. Weird but true. Maybe Dan from up north can explain if that's even possible."

    This was the post to which I replied about the need for increased hardness in the body of the blades.

    but then you went on to write

    "That particular sword was first bent by a short female student who was cutting a kesa and let the sword swing to far to her side. She actually stuck the kensaki in the ground, sideways. we were outside. I was doing a fair amount of seminars then and let anyone use it. It was bent many times and the more, the easier. I of course missed a few of my own and bent it."

    Am I confused?

    If this were the case I would caution you to rotate the swords offered to the students. Metal, like people, has muscle memory Metal fatigue is a very serious issue.
    Do not be suprised if one day you see micro fractures or worse a flying monouchi-kissaki portion of the blade! It is far less critical if the body were in fact spring tempered. But frequent "set in" bends that are straightened will lead to failure. For a "heavy user" placed in the hands of amatuers, I think its only a matter of time.

    Dan

  7. #37
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    Heck, I'll be amazed if the day ever arrives that Dan lets his short female student even touch any of his metal swords, never mind any of his good bokuto...
    Cady Goldfield

  8. #38
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    Dan,

    That sounds like a wonderful idea! Both my girlfriend and I were training as part of a sword group headed by Mr. Pat Nichols in Madison, WI, and we will be living in Pawtucket very soon. What part of Massachusetts do you live in?
    Krzysztof M. Mathews
    http://www.firstgearterritories.com

    Every place around the world it seemed the same
    Can't hear the rhythm for the drums
    Everybody wants to look the other way
    When something wicked this way comes

    "Jeremiah Blues, Part 1"
    Sting-The Soul Cages

  9. #39
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    Dan --

    What Guy was alluding to was my theory that a military sword(as opposed to a civilian work of art) should be capable of being taken to Korea in mid-February and used to chop firewood when Sarge isn't looking, to Hawaii in mid-July and dragged through the salt surf (gotta get off the boat somehow) and then sent to Saudi in October to go through a sandstorm or two. In between it should be used to open boxes, cut steel strapping, and maybe serve as a pry bar a time or two.

    In other words, it should be capable of handling routine field conditions.

    Note I am not talking about works of art here; I'm talking about social iron. So, for those folks who confess to being strapped for cash but still want/need/desire a serious whacker, wouldn't they be better advised to spend their money on steel, handle, and suspension system rather than a pretty finish?

  10. #40
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    Folks:

    I hate to see the poor results of some cutting in this country blamed on the blade regardless of what its made of. Several of us whom have trained for many years in Gendai sword arts that have shizan as a major part of their curriculum (Power and Elder to name a few) have watched long time Iai instructors try to jump on the cutting bandwagon without being trained in that technique themselves.

    The emphasis on training new students is put on on how many goza you can cut instead of how well you can cut "one". If you do teach that idea, buy a chainsaw. There's instructors that hunt deer and then practice hacking the bodies. Hacking is correct technique for a Viking axe, but not what we envision when it comes to teaching cutting with a Japanese Sword.

    Every katana has its limits regardless of its material. Its the instructor's job to realize the limits of his/her students' katana and skill level, and teach accordingly. I don't believe that a beginning student needs an expensive blade to learn proper technique. More than likely it will only hurt their understanding of cutting technique. A blade like the mantetsu Bob Elder sells, inexpensively, cuts well with proper technique. In fact one of those blades took a third place in "shodan and under" cutting at the Florida Tai Kai. It beat a lot better blades because of the sword technique behind it.

    Its true that I own an expensive Nobuhide that I use for demos, but my dojo cutting blade is a simple Kao Isshin in regular fittings.

    Having said all this I support Bob Elder and Russell McCartney banning stainless blades from their Tai Kai. As much because of the skill of some of the cutters as the type of steel in the sword.

    Carl McClafferty

  11. #41
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    Default Better Late than never...

    Dear Dan:

    Thanks for your response. Sorry I was so slow in gettting back you. The Aikido title I was inquiring about is AIKIDO AND THE CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS by Sugawara, Xing and Jones (Japan Publications, 1998). The material begins on pg 297-350 and is essentially the entire appendix of this volume.I suspect the point that initially caught my eye was the authors' intention to emphasize bio-mechanical relationships between Aikido and such Chinese arts as Tai Chi Chuan. I think what I was wondering was how much of a like stretch may have been made to identify relationships between the metalurgy of Northern Europe and that of Japan and the manner in which they documented this in their book. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,
    Bruce W Sims
    http://www.midwesthapkido.com
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  12. #42
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    Thumbs up

    I thoroughly agree with your post Mr. McClafferty. Students at our school are not allowed to begin cutting until brown belt (about 1 to 1.5 years) and then they are kept at single beach mats to develop technique. It's a great way to tell if your technique is good because they are so thin that you can't cut through them if you are off even a little. They bend over and you end up scooping them. It is much more difficult (IMHO) to make a good cut on a single beach mat than it is on a double of tatami omote. Of course, it's more fun to power through a big target!

    Cheers,

    Paul

    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  13. #43
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    Wink

    I'll add another note of caution about selecting tamishigiri swords. Make sure you have a sound mekugi (bamboo peg) and always check it before cutting. Mekugi have a nasty tendency to fall out. A number of mekugi were replaced during the mandatory sword inspection at the recent Orlando Tai Kai. Wood dowels have a greater tendency to crack versus bamboo. I personally prefer swords with double mekugi as an added insurance. We do not allow WWII tsuka (handles) on cutting swords. The 60 year old wood may look sound, but I have had one practically disintegrate in my hands when cutting. The blade, tsuba, and fuchi went flying (The mekugi remained intact and stuck in the mekugi anna of the nakago). The tsuka should fit firmly and without any play. A loose tsuka will wear out mekugi very quickly and put a lot of stress on the wooden core.
    Mike Femal

  14. #44
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Krzysztof,

    Sorry not to get back I have been away again

    Was the Madison group the TSKSR study group I heard of out that way?
    Anyway. Perhaps you could come for forging and train with us as well after. I will endevour to to insure that evertyone gets to hammer red to white hot metal.


    ************************
    Bruce
    you wrote

    The Aikido title I was inquiring about is AIKIDO AND THE CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS by Sugawara, Xing and Jones (Japan Publications, 1998). The material begins on pg 297-350 and is essentially the entire appendix of this volume.I suspect the point that initially caught my eye was the authors' intention to emphasize bio-mechanical relationships between Aikido and such Chinese arts as Tai Chi Chuan. I think what I was wondering was how much of a like stretch may have been made to identify relationships between the metalurgy of Northern Europe and that of Japan and the manner in which they documented this in their book. Thoughts?

    I think that I covered some of what you are looking for in my earlier post regarding differing cultures forging methods.
    As for the book.Is this the same Sugawara that was Un-invited by Otake after teaching the TSKSR publicly to Aikido people?
    As I said, I don't follow Aikido So I would have to get a copy and read it to comment. I will say that Budoka frequently give poor advice relating to smithing. Many of whom still buy into the Japanese "myth" thing. You say the book talks about Aikido and Tai chi chuan, but then discusses the "relationships" of forging methods and metalurgy between Nothern Europe and Japan? Hhmmm. Who did the reasearch? The Aikido guy? The Tai Chi guy? or Jones?
    can you scan the pages and email them for comment? If so, I will answer here fwiw.

    *****************

    Joe


    I could not agree with you more. But!The Japanese Katana could fit that bill with some minor changes. For starters the handle is an anachronism. Trying to "fix" it with better mekugi-ana, or more of them, or better pegs, is a fools game. The structure is fraut with potential failure to begin with. A phenolic or glass fiber handle with a "through core" full tang pinned in place, and epoxied, would do better. I would stay away from screwed on But caps (AKA European methods) they are suseptible to resonant vibrations that could crack the transitional zone area from tang to thread (that would apply to mostly encountering VERY hard objects though).
    Why the hell they don't make the Nakago length up to 1" shorter than the Tsuka and use better pin materials, beats me. Such an easy fix for many of the problems.
    The habaki is a disaster. To much potential for rust getting under there in field use. Not to mention wear and movement. A normal riccaso would fare better.
    There is really nothing inherently wrong with plain carbon steel for a using blade. Ever notice that all of the worlds indigenous peoples used carbon blades for years without much trouble? I am not afan for sowrd length stainless steel. Several good smiths can do it, myself included. But it is time consuming. Therefore costly.
    For a top tool pick, I would have a tie between a Kukuhri (my personal favorite) or a Dha. Both would have Hamon with a spring tempered body. Hell! Everything I make; including my hatchets have Hamon. Beside the look, it is functionally superior. The Dha I would make with a two hand grip and 24" differentially tempered blade. Its sort of a wide tip machete. I would place the cutting power of this up against most Katana. Thin, wide blades cut up grass, bamboo, thin trees, and soft tissue better than thick ones. The "overall" utility of a good Kukuhri is hard to beat though.

    Sending modern troops into battle with Gunto was bad enough. Sending Troops who didn't know how to use them with trainers who weren't much better was absurd. It makes you wonder how many atrocities were triggered by their NEED to feel they could use the things.


    Dan
    "who wishes he never saw the pictures from Nanking"





    [Edited by Dan Harden on 02-09-2001 at 08:55 PM]

  15. #45
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    Yes, we were part of that group. Some of the members of the study group also focused on more modern Iaido forms. We would usually have the opportunity to train with sensei Mark Jones and Sensei Sugawara at least once a year. When I was at RISD (the Rhode Island School of Design, for the non- New Englanders!) I had the opportunity to take a class in blacksmithing with Walter Scadden, a local blacksmith. I would be delighted to participate in a sword forging.
    Krzysztof M. Mathews
    http://www.firstgearterritories.com

    Every place around the world it seemed the same
    Can't hear the rhythm for the drums
    Everybody wants to look the other way
    When something wicked this way comes

    "Jeremiah Blues, Part 1"
    Sting-The Soul Cages

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