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Thread: Stainless steel???

  1. #61
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Bob E??

    Where did that come from.........?
    Saint Bob the Elder has to hold down the castle. Besided he would get mighty winded treckin all that way up north. That a fair bit "up" hill you know

    Dan

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    Oops. Guess it was wishful thinking. I have a crush on Bob, you know. A secret one. Oops...
    Cady Goldfield

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    Cool Cool, thanks!

    Originally posted by Dan Harden

    [snip]

    You know. I love your name. I have told people...
    I know this guy named Jigme Chobang! How's that for a handle

    Yeah, those Tibetans know how to party...
    I heard you were into Kempo Now.... Neh?
    Nah, still pluggin' away at the Jujutsu... still suckin' too!

    Of course you would be invited. We talked about it tonight at the Dojo. I moved you know. I got out of the commercial Judo Dojo and renovated a barn on my own property. Dojo upstairs, smithy and wood shop down stairs. Now I just walk out my front door.
    We were thinking about a forging and training weekend. I have had several private replies. I must confess, I don't see the "draw." Do you have any idea how hot a smithy is?
    I figured I would set up a few welds. [snip]
    I figure to boot my wife out for the weekend! (by begging)


    Dan
    "Who's wife has him convinced he's in charge"

    [Edited by Dan Harden on 10-03-2000 at 11:34 PM]
    Training with you guys is always a blast. Sounds great, please keep me posted.

    Be well,
    Jigme
    Jigme Chobang Daniels
    aoikoyamakan at gmail dot com

  4. #64
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    Dan:

    Well, I'm glad we've cleared that up. I guess your stated position in your first e-mail on this subject that Japanese swords were "crude smelted garbage" gave me the impression that you didn't think much of them.

    It seems that your actual position is that the tamahagane that they started out with was crude smelted garbage and that it was nothing short of a miracle that they were able to produce decent swords with it all, this being a testament to their incredible skills, and that the finished product was quite good, exceeded only by Viking and Wootz steel.

    That is a far more reasonable position. As far as extolling the virtues of Viking swords, you're preaching to the choir, man. Vikings rule. Always have, always will. Anybody who can transportage an armada of 2000 ships from Scandanavia, sail down the rivers of Russia to the Black Sea, lay siege to Constantinople, and then force the Emperor to buy them off to end the siege while hiring themselves out as his personal bodyguards (the Varangians) has got it goin' on, warrior-wise.

    It does no disservice to the Japanese sword to say that it was ONE of the best swords ever produced, and I personally have never felt it necessary to defend the position that Japanese swords were the only good swords ever made, as some people seem to do. I guess you were responding to those guys.

    I have a question, though: why were the Viking smithing techniques not carried on in medieval Europe? Were they lost? It is my understanding that most European blades were case hardened. Were the Europeans unable to recreate the Viking method? If so, why?

    I don't know much about Wootz steel, but I am under the impression that it is Indian in origin. What sort of blades was it used in? I think that I read somewhere that the Japnese imported some of it and used it to manufacture katana. True or false? Was this the type of steel used in the legendary Damascus blades?

    Also, as far as the Japanese smiths being able to produce better blades if they were allowed to, my guess (correct me if I'm wrong) is that sword-smithing in Japan is carried on so as to stay as close as possible to the traditional methods and materials so as to preserve swords and their manufacture as a traditional art rather than as a modern discipline, since swords seem to be viewed primarily as art objects with no practical value (unfortunately). This strikes me as typical Japanese conservatism. Personally, I've always preferred functionality to prettiness, and have always liked swords that were good weapons, their beauty being a function of their intrinsic nature, as opposed to swords that are art objects made to look like weapons.

    Earl
    Earl Hartman

  5. #65
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Hi earl

    I am going ocean Kyaking in Acadia national park. I won;t be back till monday Night.
    I want to respond to this in depth but I don't have time

    I always thought my postion was clear from the begining. Your summary will suffice for now. You can't really make a Katana from wootz. Different properties all together. I will explain why later.
    Yes the Tamahagane was crude stuff. NOT the smiths or their finish product......gees Earl I LOVVVE the Japanes sword. I just see it in a balanced view.

    As far as the current batch of smiths being able to produce better blades? They could if they were allowed. I understand the need for using the old methods to perserve the craft. OUTSIDE of that, they could do better. I make swords out of my own smelted steel as well as two other Maerican smiths I know of. But I realize its limits, and I am not constrained to its use. Too bad they are

    more later




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    Man, so much Info in one thread. And not a flame in sight!

    People here seem to agree that, while the japanese sword was a great weapon for the technology, smithing methods and available material, it could be better. So, what would you do today to perfect the japanese sword, while retaining its basic charateristics (not changing it to a swiss Bidenhander)?

    I know next to nothing about swords (japanese or other), but after following this thread, I'm very interested in your answers to this.
    Joachim Hoss
    Cologne, Germany

    Occam's Razor - A weapon for true martial artists.

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    Joachim:

    By "Bidenhander", do you mean those muckin' great telephone poles with the wavy blades?

    Earl
    Earl Hartman

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    Originally posted by Earl Hartman
    Joachim:

    By "Bidenhander", do you mean those muckin' great telephone poles with the wavy blades?

    Earl
    Yep. I bet they used the things a tent poles in army camps. But the variant with the wavy blade is called a Flamberge, I think. Bidenhander is old german (Mittelhochdeutsch, I think. Don't know the correct term in english) for "beide Hände", "both hands". A Two-handed sword. But as I could be wrong.

    [Edited by Joachim on 10-04-2000 at 03:48 PM]
    Joachim Hoss
    Cologne, Germany

    Occam's Razor - A weapon for true martial artists.

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    Earl

    You stated that Japanese blades are built today as art objects not with any practical value. Next time there's a Tai Kai, and you're going, let me know and I'll bring my "Nobuhide and let you cut with her. Not only is she pretty, she's a great cutter. Expensive but I wanted one that had the best of both worlds. You'll fall immediately in love with her when you see her and want her sister as soon as you cut with her. David Hofhine in Madison saw her (and sharpened her), if anyone wants to know about her up there call him.

    As far as the Viking steel my people (celts) didn't get rid of them (Vikings)until we used their own steel against them (great weapon makers). My comment about the Viking axe techniques was "it isn't Japanese swordsmanship". Studing in both Gendai and Koryu sword arts under great instructors and teaching for many decades, I've kept the course laid out for me and will continue to, until I'm no more. I am never too critical publicly about any American that does his/her own thing, but I have no need to travel that path.

    Carl McClafferty
    PS: I'd love to try one of Dan Harden's katana, might even commission one (if he would agree) if it is as good as everyone claims.

  10. #70
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    Originally posted by carl mcclafferty


    PS: I'd love to try one of Dan Harden's katana, might even commission one (if he would agree) if it is as good as everyone claims.
    LOL! Get in line, pal! There are others well ahead of you on the "wish I had one" list. He has a blade he's been working on for 6 years. Kind of a perfectionist, which doesn't lend well to mass production.
    Cady Goldfield

  11. #71
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    Carl:

    I only said that Japanese swords seem to be perceived primarily as art objects, not that modern swords are useless as weapons. Most people I know who collect them collect them because they are beautiful, not because they are good weapons (although I am sure they are that, too). I was only responding to Dan's position that Japanese smiths could make much better swords if they were allowed more leeway in their selection of materials and foging methods. I am sure that, just as Dan says, armed with modern methods and materials they could make even more superb weapons. Anyway, it seems that Dan's point had mainly to do with how a Japanese sword would stand up under really heavy use (sword vs. sword, sword vs. armor) as opposed to using it to cut straw and bamboo.

    My point, even if I stated it badly, was that the Japanese smiths seem to be constrained in that, to preserve the traditional integrity of their art, they continue to use traditional methods and materials that Dan seems to feel have been overtaken by modern technology. I personally don't know enough to judge whether this is true, but since Dan is an experienced smith, I assume that he knows more in this area than I do. As I said before, it would be exceedingly strange if modern smiths, armed with the most advanced scientific knowlege, techniques and alloys, unavailable in the past, could not make better swords than people 500 years ago.

    Anyway, this has been a very interesting discussion, but I think I had better quit while I'm behind.

    Earl
    Earl Hartman

  12. #72
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Janty
    I took the liberty of placing your last paragraph first. Thereby respondingto you in that order.


    Janty writes

    Howard Clark took the idea of the Japanese sword, and re-invented it to make a sword that will last, and take more abuse then the traditional katana of the past.


    To be fair, while Howard is an excellent smith, I am sure he would agree that he is merely "on the list" of people who have done considerable research into the forging of steel and swords. With several smiths concentrating on Katana.
    While not taking anything away from his well deserved reputation or considerable skills, He is, by no means, a re-inventor of the katana. While you mentioned the L6 he uses, he also he makes blades out of vanadium adhanced 1086 as well as his own Damascus. His damascus will let him produce Hamon (like the other smiths mentioned here) because he knows the differences from using regular damascus to a mix that will allow hamon to form uniformly. Its simple really. Why other smiths haven't figured out why regulare damascus wont make Katana yet is puzzling.
    For the topic at hand, the steel he uses and the heat treat methods he uses, L6 and bainite tranformation respectively are well known and documented. I have a book with a diisertaion on it from the fifties. Both the knowledge and the materials are decades old. Dozens of smiths use it, and Howard has mastered it.

    Please.
    Again
    Please.
    Do not put words in my mouth.
    Howard is excellent. But so are many others whom you do not know.


    Anyway, there are about five or so smiths that I know who I am sure, do an equal job as Howard. Some may be better at Hamon, some may be better at establishing grain and or traditional lines. Three of these men do not advertise in any significant way. Two have been at it longer than Howard. One is Japanese and lives a rather secluded life. You wouldn’t know his name if I ran a banner add, and three of us do not even have a listed phone. Two of them (myself included) are successful in their chosen professions, not smithing. They forge for themselves when time is available, and sell blades at their leisure
    Some of these fellows, many of us (including Howard) consider our seniors. One case in Point would be Jimmy Fikes. He was challenging the myth of the Japanese sword years before most were out of school.

    The names of many famous American Smiths; Moran, Fisk, Fowler, Hendrickson are “out there.”
    But! I will NEVER forget going to a blade show in the mid eighties and seeing these rather bland Damascus knives and bowies with simple wood handles winning all these "best of show", and "best forged knife" awards. All this while I stood in awe at a Katana By Louis Mills. It was simply one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen, as well as a short sword forged by Hugh Bartug. Then I turned and saw a stainless steel damascus (before anyone else was doing it) Bowie by Cleston Sinyard. Next I find the most incredible folders By this fellow Jimmy Schmidt. All hand carved damascus with various patterns welded into them. All this on carved and worked handles of horn carved into gobblins. I turned to the group of FELLOW SMITHS! (not judges) and said
    “My God are these judges blind, paid off or just plain stupid!!
    When the public hardly knew of him. Daryl Meire was forging damascus into tiny american flaggs. Replete with stars and stripes. All steel, all hundreds of folds repeating down the length of a blade. Not to mention Al Pendrey and his work in reproducing smelted wootz and discovering how to finally forge it cold without cracking it.
    At the time, all relative unknowns. With skills so far above the pack that the pack would never catch up.


    It would be a mistake to assume that due to someone’s name being “out there,” or well known, or the company they keep, or the pedigree they may have, that they are somehow unique or even exceptional. Often it just means they are just that........"Known"
    As is the case with so many other human endeavors, there are men out there who perfect themselves and their craft in private. Unkown and unheralded, they are called rare jewels when found. But to them their work is just the same old song day after day.It may be a passionate song. But the same song nonetheless.

    Oh and by the way…….
    Did I mention?
    PLEASE don’t tell me I am bashing any person or nationality............READ!


    *****************************************
    Janty says
    The thing people don't understand is that katana are supposed to bend if too much lateral force is put on them, this is one of the reasons why they were differentially hardened. They were designed to take a set, instead of breaking.

    me
    This is not completely true. Ideally they can be designed to be spring tempered in the body and hard on the edge. A spring tempered body with a hard edge would be the ideal. It is very difficult to do. A pearlitic structure DESIGNED to "take a set" was the best that many traditional Japanese smiths could do. Not all. Not all Japanese smiths bought into the eleborate folding processes either. Beyond the refinement of the steel itself things like kobuse folding were not neccesary and contibute to a weaker body, supposedly better able to withstand shock.
    I guess this was for cuts against the majority of guys who couldn't afford armour
    **********************************

    Janty says
    Howard took all of his knowledge and made an almost indestructable katana (key word is almost).
    Howard Clark makes Japanese style katana, and they exceed any katana made in ancient Japan.

    me
    While probably true That is a bold statement. The Japanese made many, many excellent blades as well as mediocre and crap blades.....just like real people

    **********************

    janty
    He uses L6 (tool steel), and with his expertise, he creates bainite in the spine instead of pearlite.


    me
    More accurately, he creates Bainite in the body of the blade; not just the spine. I alluded to this in my earlier letter where I said "There are some VERY interesting things that can be done in the heat treatment of carbon steels" and in particular L6. The Bainite should be produced at the lower end of the transformation temperature. If it is done at all. This lower temperature bainite will exceed the toughness of equally tempered martensite. Thus, it is a highly favorably property to produce in a eutectiod steel.
    HOWEVER. You cannot make a simple statement that Bainite is tougher than pearlite. In fact, Bainite produced at the upper end of the transformation cycle will be SOFTER than peralite formed at higher temperatures. So, more accurately stated it is the all critical temperature at which the smith controls the transformation that produces the Bainite that is most important. Not the mere presence of any bainite.
    *******************
    Janty says

    His swords can take a bend of 45 degrees and return back to normal without a sign of it ever being bent.
    Traditional katana (shinken) were known to take about 2-5 degree bend at most before it will bend. The nihonto of the past were known to bend, but can be bent back do to the fact that the Japanese were known for the proper heat treating within their blades.

    WHAT??
    The Japanese were more accurately known for the WILDELY dissimilar heat treatment results in any number of blades. That is why so much has been written (and ignored) of their failures as well as their supreme successes (just like many other cultures).

    They chip and crack
    unresolved martensite or poor tempering

    Their edges deform
    steel too soft or tempering to high

    they bend to easily
    pearlitic bodies of too soft a nature

    they have large grain structures
    bends, breaks, and ………makes beautiful Nie

    In Short they are human.


    Dan
    “ Who knows there are several men out there better than me. And I may never know some of their names either”
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 4th May 2001 at 16:16.

  13. #73
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    OKAY:

    I won't hold my breath for six years to see if any Tosho is good, Ezawa Yoshharu would build one for me before that.I'll stick with my ladies I now own and be able to do everything I need. But I admit, I will always wonder until I see one. I'll just join Earl in cyperspace.

    Carl McClafferty


  14. #74
    Dan Harden Guest

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    I won't hold my breath for six years to see if any Tosho is good, Ezawa Yoshharu would build one for me before that.I'll stick with my ladies I now own and be able to do everything I need. But I admit, I will always wonder until I see one. I'll just join Earl in cyperspace.

    Carl McClafferty

    **********************

    I don't do this for work. I do it for pleasure.
    I have one that has meteorite in it. It was veeery difficult to do and get right. I made a Kukri out of the balance. Another one I had a fairly well known Sensei's blood forged in while he stood there.
    After a year I get it done and while polishing it down.....wham
    an inclusion in the ji. Small but still......
    The blade was so sweet. 29 1/2" 1 1/2" at the machi 1" at the yokote. A real cutter. Much Chikie in the Ji. Very active ha, very bold Nioi. I cut many trees with it, without a handle.
    The sensei took it anyway after much hesitation on my part. Now I get the wonderful pleasure of seeing a failure out and about.

    Dan
    "papa said there'd be days like this
    there'd be days like this my papa said"

    [Edited by Dan Harden on 10-04-2000 at 09:02 PM]

  15. #75
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    Talking

    Dan:

    Thought you were goin' kayaking?

    I go the Renaissance Faires out here, and there are a lot of sword smiths selling their stuff, including a lot of "katanas". They look OK at first glance to someone who hasn't seen the real thing, maybe, but they don't feel right and the curve, proportions, and balance are all wrong. They might cut really well, but...thanks but no thanks.

    Love to see some of your stuff one day.

    Earl
    Earl Hartman

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