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Thread: Stainless steel???

  1. #76
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Hi Earl
    Both the wife and I are beat. Were gonna head out in the morning. Can't wait to se the seals and hike. Acadia is incredible and I desperately need a vacation. Remember the 2:30 in the morning posts? What a year. And next year will be worse....or better on how you look at it

    As far as seeing my stuff, or me for that matter:

    I don't get out much. And I hate what the Martial arts are becoming. I stopped going to the "thingies" where they all hang out together in their fooforall and do techniques my wife could get out of, or stop dead. And the weapons work? gees......

    As Alanas Wrote in "Mary Jane"
    "its full speed baby
    in the wro---ong direction"............


    I just train in the woods in a closed Dojo with a small group and keep trying to improve.

    Chances of running into me anywhere where these arts are publicly displayed are about nil.


    Dan
    "who is very rarely, if ever impressed anymore"

    [Edited by Dan Harden on 10-04-2000 at 09:05 PM]

  2. #77
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    Earl, this one's for you, man.

    Since I am a fan of the Vikings from way back, I have no problem believing that their swords were on a par with their other artifacts, their ships and jewelry in particular (ah, their ships. Has anyone ever built something so beautiful, yet so functionally perfect?).
    ====
    As far as extolling the virtues of Viking swords, you're preaching to the choir, man. Vikings rule. Always have, always will. Anybody who can transportage an armada of 2000 ships from Scandanavia, sail down the rivers of Russia to the Black Sea, lay siege to Constantinople, and then force the Emperor to buy them off to end the siege while hiring themselves out as his personal bodyguards (the Varangians) has got it goin' on, warrior-wise.


    Kinda like this???

    Regards,
    Guy


    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  3. #78
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    Default A Viking We Will Go...

    Guy:

    Yup, something like that. Can you imagine waking up one morning, going to the window to gaze out on the Black Sea (your own private lake, or so you thought) and seeing 2000 ships out there filled with Berserkers, all whacked out of their gourds on magic mushrooms and brandishing some of the best steel in the world? Enough to make you decide to take a quick vacation to that little villa in Crete (you know the one, little out-of-the-way place up in the hills, nice olive orchard and vinyards, a few slaves, far from the hurly-burly of politics, just the thing for a little R&R. Oh, what's that? The shuttle leaves in 5 minutes? Tell them I'll be right there, just need to throw a few things in the old valise here...)

    Earl
    Earl Hartman

  4. #79
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    Earl --

    Remember the Scandihoovian's alternatives. He can sit inside the house all winter watching Bergmann movies and eating lutefisk (with his in-laws and the horse in the same room), OR he can head to the Mediterranean in hopes of finding one of those topless beaches. Hmm. Hmm.

    Dan --

    Are you interested in revising some of your thoughts into an article? I'd love to publish something along these lines in EJMAS.

    All --

    Way back when, Bruce asked a question about iaito pricing that hasn't been publicly answered. But, from making some searches on the Internet, this is what I found. Where possible, links are to reviews rather than sellers but in a couple cases I'm not aware of any online reviews and so the link is to the seller. If you know additional reviews or brands that should be listed (include brands to avoid), let me know as eventually I'll post a consolidated listing at EJMAS.

    NOTE: Prices are listed in US dollars, and are approximate only; obviously hardware, fittings, and shopping affect sword buying as much as car buying.

    $350-$500

    C.A.S. Iberia
    http://www.swordforum.com/swords/nih...andidates.html

    Fujiwara
    http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/cat_iaito.htm

    Kris Cutlery:
    http://www.swordforum.com/swords/kri...kc-katana.html

    $750-$1250

    Bugei (Chen swords)
    http://www.swordforum.com/swords/nih...ndidates.html; see also http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum32/HTML/001245.html

    $1500+

    Dotanuki Shinken
    http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/cat_shinken.htm

    Nosyuiaido
    http://ejmas.com/ejmasreviews.htm

    Over $2000

    North American custom makers (including some marketed by Bugei)

    Over $6000

    Japanese custom makers

  5. #80
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    Joe:

    You're right. Not much of a choice. That probably explains all of the topless Swedish babes in Eilat.

    Earl
    Earl Hartman

  6. #81
    Jeff Bristol Guest

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    Earl, ya had to bring up the mushrooms, which by the way has now become my favorite piece of trivial knowledge.


    Jeff Bristol

  7. #82
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    Earl --

    Sven and Ole aren't as dumb as Lena thinks, ya shure ya betcha.

    Jeff --

    Try Terence McKenna, "Food of the Gods: The Search for the Original Tree of Knowledge" (New York: Bantam Books, 1992). Magic mushrooms get considerable play, but nary a word is spoken of lutefisk.

  8. #83
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    Svend: Hey Ole, If you can guess how many katana are in this saya I'll give this one to you.

    Ole: Oh, you got maybe four in there?

    I grew up with a guy named Stan Boreson on TV. For anyone from the P.NW, you know what I'm talking about.

  9. #84
    Jeff Bristol Guest

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    Thanks, joe, like you two I am a big fan of the vikings, I figure anyone who can handle curdled goats milk is pretty powerful.


    Jeff bristol

  10. #85
    Mike Guest

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    Dan,
    hope you had a relaxing weekend!

    I've read the whole discussion with great interest and have stumbled over the same problem, I have met many times before.
    Here in Europe we have completely diffent descriptions and standard names for steels compared to you. Because you seem to be one of the experts around could you either explain shortly what are steels like L6 or ATS34, or on the other hand name a online database which compares American to European standards.

  11. #86
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    Default completely off topic

    Originally posted by Mike
    (...) or on the other hand name a online database which compares American to European standards.
    Or name a good, solid book. Mike here really adores big books full of tables and formulas, don't you mike?

    Hey Mike, post more. Don't be so shy.

    Did you tell Magda, we can't meet her on the EXPO?

    Sorry for the off topic ranting!
    Joachim Hoss
    Cologne, Germany

    Occam's Razor - A weapon for true martial artists.

  12. #87
    Dan Harden Guest

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    I took the libery of posting this duplicate from the Koichi wa thread here. It seems applicable to some of the questions raised in this thread.



    Winterfox writes
    Harden-san, thank you for correcting me on the grade of steel in leaf springs. I checked, and found that I had made the classic mistake of ass-u-me-ing. (we need a seppuku smilie) :seppuku: The 1095 desigation came from having worked with some leaf springs from an older vehicle, that did use 1095. Anyway, I have never had a prolem with tempering on leaf spring. I have done some clay quenching, and found that the temper line really is just a function of how you arrange the clay. Then again, I've been told I'm opinionated.

    ****************************

    Well Two things

    First, It isn't a question of whether or not you CAN temper it. You can. You can clay quench many grades of steel.

    Two, The comments I made were not necessarily about the application of the clay. It was about the outcome of the hamon relative to both the carbon content and the alloying elements. I am talking about the maximum control to get a very defined and even hamon with defining characteristics!

    All things being equal IE: application of the clay identical in a control group. The outcome of the hamon will be excellent to poor in the following order.

    simple low to meduim carbon...water quench
    simple medium carbon..........water quench
    simple high carbon............water quench* your choice
    simple low to meduim carbon...oil quench
    simple medium carbon..........oil quench
    simple high carbon............oil quench*your choice
    5160 series...................oil quench*can't be water quenched
    L series L6 etc...............oil quenched
    O series (O2 etc).............oil quenched
    other alloying steels that are deep hardening
    _________________________________________________

    The "performance curve" list is inversed somewhat. Meaning the ultimate combination of ductility /hardenability, wear resistence and edge holding.

    other alloying steels that are deep hardening
    L series......................oil quenched
    O series...................oil quench*can't be water quenched
    5160 series...................oil quench*can't be water quenched
    simple medium carbon..........water or oil quench*your choice (AND 99%OF JAPANESE BLADES EVER MADE)
    simple high carbon............water or oil quench* your choice
    low carbon....................water quenched

    Allow me to clarify. I can take A2 (a deep hardening steel) and air harden it, then use a specific welding heat stop product to form a hamon shape and draw the temper back. This will give you a Japanese "style" blade that will outcut just about anything you will EVER lay your hands on. But the Hamon looks like crap. On its best day it will look as bad as the "bad examples" oil quenched WW11 junk.
    OR,
    I can use various grades of simple carbon steels (shallow hardening) and oil quench those. You will get a far better Hamon then in the first example. In fact by taking the time and applying it correctly. You will get a decent hamon, one that many people may like. At this point you could even make various hamon shapes at will. This is the method used on the Nosuyiaido "steel iaito."
    It still looks plain Jane(to me).
    Now for my main point.

    In all of the above examples you get hamon that perform a function. You have successfully, differentially hardened (and if you know what you are doing secondarily tempered) the blade. But, you have a plain jane hamon with diffuse Nioi, no ashi formation, no yo or sunugashi, forget utsuri (although this is more of a function of temperature control) it still encompasses depth of hardenability an d clay application.
    Nothing, absolutely NOTHING will produce as precise control of the formation of ashi or the difficult choji as well as room temperature WATER. There are numerous new quenching mediums that are great and will get close but !!!
    I have spent years with fellow smiths telling me try this or that. Then they tell you I got a great looking hamon with this X or that X. Then I see what THEY call a great hamon……fizzle!!

    Your example outlines 1095. This produces a very thin line. You can control it but it is thin nonetheless. In fact, if you were to raise your carbon up to 1.00% and over, the line will all but disappear. It will still be differentially, hardened though.
    As a side note, once your on this side of the carbon phase diagram you are not gaining in strength, your losing. You will have too much unresolved martensite. That will cause you to sacrifice ductility in the entire blade. This happens at anything over aprox. .80% carbon.

    The most common leaf spring material 5160-68 makes and abysmal temper line since it has chromium in it. Great leaf spring or sword though.

    If you stay in the 1070 to 1086 range, you get excellent hardness and a much more active habuchi.
    Stay away from 1065. Although it says it is water quenching most guys can’t get it to work. It cracks in anything other then oil. This is the steel Bob Engnath and Slobodian used for years before swithcing to the lower carbon water quenching series (with the quality of their hamon increasing dramatically)
    The lower carbon series 1050 –1060 make very lovely hamon with a very wide transitional zone. The blades just aren’t as strong.

    Please realize this is just a cursory overview, with much that I could say, left out I don’t enjoy writing over coffee in the morning

    Dan
    “Who spent way to many years alone in the barn smithing and reading”

  13. #88
    Dan Harden Guest

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    In keeping with the current discussion on steel and the comparative methods of forging down throught the ages.. I thought I would tell you a story of a recent find.
    I had told ya all I was going to Maine for a vacation. While we were there we stopped at one of many Antique shops. I found a broad axe dating back aprox. 100-150 years (as far back as was logically possible, it could be older) It seems it came from an old guys estate and the ax was HIS grandfathers! The dealer was told by the guy that the axe was handforged.
    Anyway.
    I take the rusted peice of junk away for $32.00. I bring it home. I re-shape it like a Swedish carving axe. While filing, I notice parrallel lines running down it. I get a little acid...Whammo What do I find?
    The thing was forged out of aprox. 200 layers of steel, wrapped around a swage and closed on the other end. Here's the thing. A piece of homogenous High carbon steel was inserted in the end before the smith closed it. It is San mai forged. I have removed most of the rust, but it is badly pitted and will need much work. It is however, quite beautiful to behold. The high carbon is jet black against the lighter layers all around.
    I will finish up in a week or so, etch it and take pictures. I will attempt to post them here.
    I thought it an amazing coincidence that such an extraordinary piece of work would wind up in the hands of a fellow smith three generations later, instead of rusting in a barn. Perhaps the man said a little prayer that his work would not perish. It represents qite a bit of work on his end, more so then required for a simple tool. He did this for a reason. Perhaps a custom order, perhaps for himself.
    Anyway, here we are in New England, with a piece of san mai steel, differentially hardened (I tested it) in a broad axe from the mid 19th century!

    Dan
    "who has the flu and is home working anyway"

  14. #89
    thana Guest

    Default steels

    Questions for Dan Harden:
    Of steels, how would you rate edge holding and strength on a scale of 1 - 10.

    swedish powder steel
    forge welded cable
    l6
    l6 core forged with O1
    tamahagane
    wootz

    What metals can you enhance with vanadium and nickel? How much of each should be present?

    What is your personal preference and why? Consider each evaluation with NO aesthetics in mind. I am one of the few, who do not care at all what a katana looks like, only how it functions

  15. #90
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Reply to post to bring up thread.

    I did this since this thread has been both a reference and a recurring topic on many occasions, and few people seem to know how to use the topic search and private message features. The commentary, debate and information exchange by so many contributors without any flaming was a rather rare and pleasurable occurrence here.

    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 4th May 2001 at 15:52.

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