Just my opinion

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Martyn van Halm
So, Wayne merely voiced the typical opinion of a typical xenophobic Japanese. However, depicting Japanese as xenophobic is racist...

You should have let sleeping dogs lie. Or responded to the thread before it was closed- like McGovern who stayed away until it was safely closed.

But I can't let this go unanswered. In Muromoto's defense I would point out that the Japanese have a tendency towards xenophobia. He does not say that each and every Japanese has that quality. You ask anyone who has lived in Japan and they will say that there is a greater chance of running into xenophobia here than just about anywhere else I can think of. They will aslo echo the theme that it is hard to believe that someone can have dojos, books, seminars and web pages in English language countries, but be so secret in Japan that no one has heard of them. The idea that you can tell Americans, but not Japanese about a Japanese art is just plain silly.

[Martyn van Halm]

Originally posted by Don Roley
You should have let sleeping dogs lie. Or responded to the thread before it was closed- like McGovern who stayed away until it was safely closed.

Yes, well, I'm not McGovern. I didn't wait [on purpose] for the thread to be closed, I was simply late. Anyway, I thought this was a sensible comment by me - how this was not a case of racism but of creative license and should be dealt with as such.

I'm a fiction writer myself and I hope nobody will equate that I share the opinions of my fictional characters.

As to the xenophobia of Japanese - I'm not Japanese, I've met a few Japanese in Amsterdam that were all right [but, of course, if they were xenophobic they wouldn't have traveled abroad], I once spent an afternoon with Hatakeyama sensei walking around in Amsterdam showing him the sights. So most of my knowledge about Japan and the Japanese is 'second-hand'. I'll take your word for it.

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Martyn van Halm
As to the xenophobia of Japanese - I'm not Japanese, I've met a few Japanese in Amsterdam that were all right [but, of course, if they were xenophobic they wouldn't have traveled abroad], I once spent an afternoon with Hatakeyama sensei walking around in Amsterdam showing him the sights. So most of my knowledge about Japan and the Japanese is 'second-hand'. I'll take your word for it.

You are right about how odd it would be for a xenophobic Japanese travelling overseas. Most of the types that deal with gaijin come from the more open minded end of the spectrum. There are a few that seem to only go overseas to confirm for themselves just how superior they are to other people- but those idiots are thankfully very few in number.

However, we are still outsiders as far as the Japanese are concerned. The word "gaijin" does not mean foriegner, it means "outside person." In other words, anyone not Japanese. Foriegner is "gaikokujin" in Japanese. Literally it means "outside country person." So a Japanese would never yse the tern Gaikokujin to refer to an American while they were in LA, but they would use the term gaijin.

So if any Japanese was willing to go outside the Japanese race to teach their art, then they would have no qualms about letting other Japanese know. That is why it is so hard for us to believe it when people like Ashida Kim, Konigun ninjutsu and others claim that their art is so secret in Japan that they can't show proof of a link and yet they are teaching the art openly in the local mini mall.

[Martyn van Halm]

Originally posted by Don Roley
The word "gaijin" does not mean foriegner, it means "outside person." In other words, anyone not Japanese. Foriegner is "gaikokujin" in Japanese. Literally it means "outside country person." So a Japanese would never yse the tern Gaikokujin to refer to an American while they were in LA, but they would use the term gaijin.

Doesn't 'gai-jin' also mean 'strange/weird person'? In other words, 'alien/freak'. I heard [somewhere] that the Japanese like calling foreigners 'gai-jin' because they consider us freaks/weirdos. And that us calling ourselves 'gai-jin' is very amusing to them ['Can you help me, I'm a freak and I don't know the way to Kobe?'].

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Martyn van Halm
Doesn't 'gai-jin' also mean 'strange/weird person'?

Not as far as I can tell. Some people can make it sound that way, but there is no connotation like that in the dictionay version. Some gaijin I know take offense at the ter, which baffles my Japanese friends. None of the long term residents of Japan who speak the language seem to take offense. But there is always the underlying message of the term that we are outsiders and will never be part of the "in" crowd so to speak. For Americans and other countrymen, it is a little hard to accept that not even the third generation descendents of Korean laborers are automatically considered anything other than Korean in Japan. Imagine having to carry an alien registration card in a country where you were born and the only language you can speak is Japanese.

[Steve McGovern]

Don, I didn not avoid your thread. I don't live on the terminal and least of all this board. It was closed before I could get to it. Besides I don't feel the need to say more than what has already been said. It is my "opinion" and if you have a problem with that then deal with it. You seem to have a fetish about bringing up Saito even when the topic has nothing to do with him. Get a life or go train, do something constructive.

Martyn, I guess creative license allows one to "push the envelope" at times. Your reference to the early trading histoy with the Dutch make sense however, the article was not refering to this history and in my opinion was in the present tense. I do find your xenophobic comment interesting as far as the racism issue is concerned.

Cheers!

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by Steve McGovern
You seem to have a fetish about bringing up Saito even when the topic has nothing to do with him.

Oh don't think I am treating you special in any way. Some of the folks like Kreth and I have a long history of questioinig the claims of people that make noise like they study Japanese traditions but have nothign to back what they say up. It is the combination of lack of credentials, extreme ignorance of the subject matter and your eagerness to comment on things you do not know much about that just draws me to you. I have gone through this with the followers of Kazuo Saito, Ashida Kim, the Nindo ryu, Yo Sato, the Konigun and a host of others. But the problem is that as soon as most of the board knew just how little they knew, all the guys I mentioned fled rather than face the laughter of everyone. So that leaves you, and you will not keep to subjects you are qualified to talk about like navy supply forms. If you want to talk as if your art existed in any point in Japan, then just show a link for the art. (And please- do not try to once agains say taht just because Saito had Japanese ancestors that is proof he learned a secret fighting art.)

It is just a fact that there is no more proof for your claims to a Japanese tradition than any of Ashida Kim. As such, you should just get used to being treated like such. When you lecture people on how things are done in your "Japanese" art, then expect people to ask for proof that it did not start with an incompetent fraud in america.

[Kreth]

Originally posted by Don Roley
Oh don't think I am treating you special in any way. Some of the folks like Kreth and I have a long history of questioinig the claims of people that make noise like they study Japanese traditions but have nothign to back what they say up.

Well, since my name was brought into this... I don't have the resources that Don does in chasing down some of these fairy tales. I've just always gone with the theory that if it smells like dog crap, it probably is... Trust me, if I can find holes in Japanese usage for one of these super-secret websites-er, schools, then their grasp of Japanese must be very poor indeed.
I've been lurking for a while now watching this debate develop, and I also have to wonder why it is that you can't provide a single link back to Japan, and by this I mean some evidence of your school's existence there. If you don't trust Don to be unbiased, discuss it with one of the other E-budo members living in Japan.

Jeff

[Steve McGovern]

Don, for one who is merely a translator you sure know a lot about my job or actual combat for that matter. So how many conflicts have you been in? ...aside from e-budo that is. Stick to your safe little translator's job as I'm sure it is really important and leave the war fighting to those of us who do it for a living and use our arts in that capacity. So enough about our jobs.

I guess your attempting to mean ignorance as a derogatory term? Must be that British Humor (oxymoron?) I keep hearing about. Nice thing about ignorance, it goes away as one becomes educated unlike prejudice and racism. I have stated many times that I am working towards increasing my knowledge of the language and history. If I don't follow your timeline because I have a real job that does not allow me to "homestead" like you then that's your hang-up not mine. So, Don, Yes you know more about Japan than I do. Yes you speak the language while I am learning it. Yes you married a Japanese girl (her parents must be truly thrilled if they are xenophobes). Yes you are a "stinking cheese smelling foreigner” just like me. I have real combat experience you do not. Get over it already.

Kreth- Go read the Saito thread. Check the website too if you care to. The acknowledgement to the poor use of Japanese has been and is referenced in the Saito story by Sensei Phelps (no it was not added later Don). A point that Don conveniently leaves out.

OK this thread "was" about opinion concerning BJK arts being Ninjutsu or merely Budo and Japanese Style but seems to have degrades to a Saito Thread thanks to Don Roley. I'll comeback if and when it gets back on topic. And if you don’t know what that is you should go back and read the initial Post.

I think time would be better spent if the BJK would clean up their own house before the try to clean up someone elses. But that's another thread.

Cheers

[studious_ninja]

What does one's combat experience have anything to do with authenticating an art? Oh that's right, it has nothing to do with it.

[Steve McGovern]

So what do navy supply forms have to do with authenticating an art? Oh, that's right, it has nothing to do with it.

[JamesGarcia]

Just for the record, The Almighty Don Roley was fluent in Japanese before he ever moved to Japan as he actually translated for Japanese at seminars, no small task at all. I first met him, was it 1991' Texas Taikai Don??? and at this time he was already passing out copies of the Bugei Ryu'ha Daijiten which none of us had ever seen at the time, so researching history was in his repertoir before ever moving there soon after, and damn fine at it too.

[Steve McGovern]

I never said he wasn't and have always credited his knowledge in this area. However, it is quite pompus for those with Don's background to disuade those who are only begining their studies in history and language.

[Kreth]

Originally posted by Steve McGovern
Kreth- Go read the Saito thread. Check the website too if you care to. The acknowledgement to the poor use of Japanese has been and is referenced in the Saito story by Sensei Phelps (no it was not added later Don). A point that Don conveniently leaves out.

I did look at the website, and I did not see the comment you mentioned, you'll have to point me to it. I do find it strange, though, that someone who was so close to a Japanese family would not be more fluent.

I think time would be better spent if the BJK would clean up their own house before the try to clean up someone elses. But that's another thread.

Interesting comment, as Phelps seems to think enough of the Bujinkan, or more specifically, Hatsumi Sensei, to have a pic of him on his website.

Jeff

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by JamesGarcia
I first met him, was it 1991' Texas Taikai Don??? and at this time he was already passing out copies of the Bugei Ryu'ha Daijiten which none of us had ever seen at the time, so researching history was in his repertoir before ever moving there soon after, and damn fine at it too.

No Slimy one, we met at the Bill Atkins seminar at Abi's place. Remember me making everyone laugh with my lack of skills?

Originally posted by Kreth
I did look at the website, and I did not see the comment you mentioned, you'll have to point me to it. I do find it strange, though, that someone who was so close to a Japanese family would not be more fluent.

Kreth,
You have seen the same type of behavior from people like Kiyodaiken as from Steve McGovern. Virtual tough guys who work in supply and talk like they were commandos. They know the guys they train under are not what they seem and hang on for the glory in the eyes of others they crave.

It is a fact that Mark Satio jr used the term "Shorinjin." It is also a fact that Phelps said that that term meant "men of Shaolin." This is untrue. Shorinjin is a nonsensical term in Japanese. That Saito would say that he heard it from a native speaker basically says he lied about it. That Phelps would try to say it meant something it does not means that he is not trustworthy in terms of his Japanese ability. Of course Phelps tries to portray himself as fluent in Japanese, but no one truely fluent would make that type of mistake. It is fairly obvious he makes up stories to try to impress others.

So we can pretty much lump all the guys from the Saito group with the guys who think Ashida Kim is peachy keen. They use the same type of aurguments and tactics. (When asked for proof they say, "have you asked everyone in Japan if they taught our teacher" and when pushed into a corner they try to attack those that point out unpleasent truths- ie the Bujinkan.)

Your instrincts on these types of things are pretty good. If it smells of dog doodie, it pretty much is a good chance of being dog doodie.

And like Wind Demon, Kiyodaiken and Ron Collins, they just do not know when everyone no longer beleives their drivel and it takes a while before they decide to leave e-budo.