Opportunity for escape.

[chris davis 200]

Hi all,

When practicing Daito Ryu at my school an emphasis is placed on blocking Tsuki or Opportunity for escape / openings for escape.

All of the techniques have a very advanced way of not giving the opponent this opportunity.

Recentley when training with an aikido-ka i noticed that there was alot of this tsuki due to the circularity of his movement, and upon examining film of some leading figures this tsuki still seems to be there. (i know you cant tell too much from film )

The uke seems to be mindlessly lead by Tori, and the training of sensitivity to tsuki seems to be absent from the aikido that i have seen and felt(aside from Yoshikan). In daito ryu the assumption is that your agressor is a skilled warrior and thus any tsuki would be exploited. I am sure that this concideration must be there in aikido.

I would like to hear your views on gaps in aikido technique where a skilled opponent could escape, and your experience in practicing to bear this in mind.

thankyou.
Chris Davis

[szczepan]

Dynamic AND safe practice is impossible without creating openings for uke. In Daito ryu a practice is rather static so it is possible to more close all openings.
This is one of fundamental difference between aikido and Daito ryu, I'd say.
You can observe in judo this interesting phenomenon, if one of judoka closes all openings (in dynamic way - constantly change and counter all attempts of attacker), nothing happens. But that means he can't attack also

[chris davis 200]

Indeed,

The Hitoemi Principle in Daito ryu means that throughout the technique Openings in the technique are closed. This does not meant that softness or aiki cannot be used but just that The movement positions Uke in such a way that he has no opportunity to release or escape.

In arts such as ba gua (which i also study and has similar movements to aikido) this principle of closing openings is also very important.

Is it part of Aikido training or is it just not touched upon?

I know this may be hard to answer due to the diversity of Aikido Training but personal experiences would be greatly appriciated.

Thankyou
Chris

[Aikisean]

Trust me when I say this. All Aikido is NOT the same. Some styles will stress combat effectiveness and allow zero room for escape. Others can be described as dance-like and show no real worth as a martial art. The answer to your question can vary from school to school even within the same organization. Since Yoshinkan is more true to the old style Aiki-budo, You'll see an emphasis on "Rock Solid" technique. You won't get that all the time with other styles.

[chris davis 200]

Aikisean

Um ...

Hence me saying!

I know this may be hard to answer due to the diversity of Aikido Training but personal experiences would be greatly appriciated.

what are your Personal training experiences of this?

Personal experience, in training for stopping Tsuki, is going to give a good overall view. Assumption on the MA training methods doesnt really give much in the way of real knowledge. IMO

Thankyou
chris

[bruceb]

What is found, as the student progresses,is that the dead weight of someone who is resisting creates a more dangerous environment for training than one who learns to be led as a live weight. The sack of potatoes verses the sack of feathers applys here.

If you have done any type of shadow practice or sticky-hands, where you are touching your partner without grabbing or resisting, the harmony of such movements seems to be very easily followed and it certainly looks as if the one leading can overcome the one following, but in learning the harmony of motion one learns to take advantage of the opponent or practice partner because balance and harmony can switch back and forth. Many students seek to overwhelm their opponent, or be in control of opponents by creating an overwhelming force, but to learn how to take advantage of the natural motions that are occuring within the motions are not always created by nage, sometime .... the reciever, uke, takes advantage of forces available and thereby acheives the harmony of Aiki.

Maybe because I had just finished a few years of Kempo Karate/ Jujitsu practice when I started Aikido I have ALWAYS looked for the escape and means to protect myself from techniques no matter where I was, be it uke or nage. One must always think to protect oneself, think of escape, and be ready to take advantage of the forces available to drawn upon the harmony of those forces and put them to his/her advantage.

The couple of people I have gone with who fill themselves with 'KI" seem stiff and resistent to me, like a sack of potatoes or too stiff, which means I have to focus my attention to a higher level or more distant target area to move this heavier resistent weight. The only problem with doing that is .... I am probably going to hurt them when I do because it is like two trains colliding at 50 MPH. The combined forces are increased as the forces of the two opponents increase thereby creating a greater chance for injury during practice.

Now, I am not talking about staying so far ahead of the technique that it looks phony, but staying right with the movements, fractions of a second between pain and injury, ready to take advantage of any movement, create the opportunity needed if necessary. At some point in time, the techniques will be so close to the escape, all the practice will feel like nothing but look like a shihan demonstrating techniques.

I have to go somewhere, but I will be back . My daughter needs to go to the doctor.

We need to talk a bit more and clear up how Daito Ryu and Aikido eventually come to the same goals, although by different methods of practice.

Be back later.

[chris davis 200]

What is found, as the student progresses,is that the dead weight of someone who is resisting creates a more dangerous environment for training than one who learns to be led as a live weight. The sack of potatoes verses the sack of feathers applys here

I think that the general impresion created by this question of tsuki is that in order to wipe out tsuki, force or strength is needed and no harmony or following can occure.

This is not the case. When i talk about tsuki i am talking about gaps in the technique where nothing is applied. No leading, no pressure, no pushing, nothing, at this point a skilled MA practitioner will take advantage.

It doesnt mean that there has to be an opposing force to close the opening but an APPROPRIATE force, wether this is leverage, pulling, pushing, leading, following, yealding - whatever is required.

Maybe because I had just finished a few years of Kempo Karate/ Jujitsu practice when I started Aikido I have ALWAYS looked for the escape and means to protect myself from techniques no matter where I was, be it uke or nage. One must always think to protect oneself, think of escape, and be ready to take advantage of the forces available to drawn upon the harmony of those forces and put them to his/her advantage.

When we talk about openings or opportunity of the attacker we are not talking of an opponent constantly resisting or being 'like a sack of potatoes' in order to achive a defence. A skilled fighter would not be like this. a skilled fighter would be able to intuatively sense an opening in a techniique or movement and exploit it. A tai chi practitioner bases much of their statergy on the creation and exploitation of tsuki in the opponents attacks.

The method of following often employed by Aikido Uke seems to be an emulation of an 'unskilled' attacker, someone without the sensitivity of movement that would inform him of the tori's 'gaps'. someone that is more like a machine that follows without sensitivity to change.

We need to talk a bit more and clear up how Daito Ryu and Aikido eventually come to the same goals, although by different methods of practice.

The methods by which Daito ryu stops tsuki are not done by force or strength, this is a misconception by many aikido ka.

The principles of aiki remain the same. But in the application of aiki or the principles of movement their is consideration to the uke's effectiveness as a fighter - the assumption is of the worst case scinario, one that the uke knows what he/she is doing. and if 'dead spots' or gaps in your reaction or movement appear they will be exploited. In order to close gaps and openings Strength is not needed - 'mind' is.

This is really what i am talking about. What i felt from aikidoka was some good 'listening skill (feeling the movement of the opponent), but during the technique, the uke could 'sense' a tsuki and escape. These may only be microseconds but a microsecond is all that is needed if your are moveing instinctivley.

cheers
Chris

[Ron Tisdale]

I'm not positive about this, but I think that a lot of aikido is *meant* to provide that opportunity for uke to "disengage". In some ways I think it is a marvelous thing...in other ways, a quick path to disaster.

As a method of safe but vigorous practice, I like it a lot. As a method of fighting...

I think this is one of the reasons I like training in Daito ryu when I can. But I still stick with the aikido...

Ron (ask me why in 10 years)

[Aikisean]

Originally posted by chris davis 200
Aikisean

Um ...

Hence me saying!



what are your Personal training experiences of this?

Personal experience, in training for stopping Tsuki, is going to give a good overall view. Assumption on the MA training methods doesnt really give much in the way of real knowledge. IMO

Thankyou
chris

I based my answer upon personal experience. I always do.

But what I tell you is not is going to answer your question unless you try it yourself. If uke's balance is taken, there are no more openings. If uke, at any time within the technique, regains his balance for but an instant, an opening big enough to back a truck in has just been made. Keep that in mind.

This is what I have experienced as both uke and nage. It's true with just about any Martial Art.

[bruceb]

I realize that the initiation of movement and the escape may not seem to be harmony, but if one applys the thoughts gathered from riding a wave, going against the wind, or even confronting an overwhelming force, the choice of taking control are limited to the opportunities at hand, which is where I was going before I had to do my errands.

You don't want to be the wave striking the bulkhead, or for yourself to be anywhere near that kind of situation. THIS type of resistence or impact is where I saw the question angling towards, whether it was intended to go that direction or not.

Essentially, the inititation of one person, the the oblique initiation of another person has the opportunity to work on both a physical and mental level that distracts concentration and breaks the physical balance, but also is a means to cause a movement that is convenient to coax movement ... to allow either yourself or your opponent to move into a position that is more advantageous to you. Feint, counter feint, movement, counter movement ... a game of chess that is simple and at the same time complex.

Now this is the simple part of my thoughts.

When one has practiced long enough to be conscious of ones movements, the movements of your opponent and which movements have given away what you are going to do next, such as telegraphing, ones unconscious mind can automatically adjust to sucker in an opponent without losing awareness of the surroundings with the conscious mind, this is the advanced referral to the third eye, the sixth sense, the becoming one with the universe, IN the groove, IN the zone, or anything else you want to use to describe this everything is right feeling of body and mind. What I am ascribing to is that many of the practiced movements found within Aikido are tried and true actions that give an involuntary KNEE-JERK reaction that your partner or opponent cannot help but do.

I had thought this is where this thread wanted to go..... how to either get this knee-jerk reaction every time, or to be aware of how to escape if you yourself are caught up in the knee jerk reaction.

The problem with trying to escape from the knee-jerk reaction is that you are caught in the raging river, or the rogue wave that has you tumbling out of control which makes it extremely difficult to escape without using greater force than it would take to ride out the rapids or the wave. It is this redirection of force that I refer to when I speak of having someone who is resisting verses someone who is using the forces available to find an avenue of escape. Does that clear up that point? I hope so.

So, my thoughts are .... you redirect the oncoming force, but the oncoming force see's your redirection and adapts and changes enough so that there is resistence... now what?

Atemi .... fake or real, a distraction to break the balance, either physical or mental balance, right? The control has to be gained by taking the balance of the body, and breaking the concentration of the mind so that offense is not a practical reality.

This is a whole 'nother thread worth of comments, but the person who controls the physical and mental balance will be the one who wins .... if ... that is if ... they don't allow the opponent the Opportunity to Escape, right?

Well ... I am gonna bail out cause I am working on "breaking the balance" on another thread.

You guys go ahead. I just wanted to inject the training needed to harmonize or respond to the knee-jerk response might be a lot harder to train for than a simple solution. It might involve a whole series of techniques and training drills to give you those skills.

Catch you later.

[Rob Turtle]

Hi Chris ...

nice question. Can't answer much from the aikido point of view, but can certainly comment about the bagua.

(As an asside, Sun tze writes that one should always allow an opponent an avenue of escape, as a cornered individual has to fight. One with a route to run into - and away from you - can be, um, encouraged to take it. All part of the "fighting without fighting" and "first win the battle, the seek the confrontation" thing.)

On balance taking: as long as I am centered, and my opponent has lost theirs, there are few gaps. Any that come up will be because I have mometarily lost/ starting to loose center, and they are able to regain theirs (usually in doing so, taking me further off). This particularly occurs when I get the angles wrong - and start trying to force an application. Hence the concept of sticking (Chinese side) and flow (both C and J).

On flow: if my partner is over-cooperative, there is no realistic sense of flow. It's not that I'm leading them anywhere, it's that they are off on a wander by their own accord. One needs a realistic amount of feedback as to whether one is applying the correct angle (and hence keeping center), or working force-against-force (and loosing center).

On angles: if my technique can be done slowly with awareness of flow and balance, it can be made to work quickly (providing I keep the same). This does not necessarily work in reverse. (I am cheating myself my using speed as a replacement for skill and sensitivity). At a slow speed one can easily feel if one ahs chosen the correct angle - and also feel when resistance will develop, and hence when to change the angle. (All movements occur within a natural and optimum range. Step outside that, and one has to "force it").

On opening and closing: um... a biggie. (Some respected Chinese have said "without kai-he there is no taiji"). This is essentialy working with pivots (and hence relates to angles), but also to the principle of to open I must close, to close I must open. Hence also relates to leading. If my opponent is moving to the right, I must create a gap for them to move into, and close up from behind to "help" them along.

If there are gaps or discontinuities in any of these (center, sticking, kai-he) then there is an opportunity for my opponent to escape... and if they are skilled the escape will take my center and be turned into a "technique" against me.

Referring back to Sun tze... on one level it is not backing someone into a dead end so they have somewhere to run that avoids any contact and confrontation. On another, it relates to kai-he above (encourage them to move as they want to, help a bit from behind. Then if feeling nasty, change it once their center is taken).

===

I realise that these concepts are also in aikido... and also realised the diversity of systems and schools. However, the issue of uke being overly helpful, and techniques being applied with speed to hide inappropriate angle are things that I have seen on more than one occasion. On all occasions they were good schools, and the errors were missing from the teacher (one of whom was a very hand 4th Dan whose movement I really liked). The same could not be said for the students.

[Ron Tisdale]

Really nice post, Mr. Turtle.

Thanks,
Ron

[Amir]

I study Korindo Aikido, and my teacher is quite "self defense" oriented. So this might be affecting my view, and my answer different then most Aikido practitioners.

If by Tsuki you refer to the ability of Uke to find a counter technique of any type (strike, throw, joint-lock or evasion), then we surly relate to this throughout our practice.

Starting with the explanation of the technique (In some cases, a beginner is taught a safer variation which has loop-holes, but we do explain those and how to avoid them).

Going on to Randori practice in which the roles of Uke and Tori are not pre-assigned, each attacks when he finds the opportunity, executes a technique when he can, and may evade a technique. For beginners, the Randori is very co-operative to the point a senior student will actually help the beginner in correct application, create opportunities and refrain from evading and using counters.
As the skill level increases, one slowly sheds these restrictions, and one may do whatever he wishes. And we are encouraged in fact to use counters and evasions but under one guiding rule - don't use force to resist or counter, use your harmony, lapses in Tori application (My teacher is an expert in this and in our last Randori he let me start setting up some technique then used a lapse I have between setting it and applying it to throw me down again and again - showing me I had much to work on).

The main tools we use to prevent counters and evasions are taking the opponent out of balance, and positioning yourself in such a way it would be very difficult to hit (the center has much to do with it, but so has the line of attack and some more ideas).


I am sure there are many other Ueshiba related Dojos that teach in similar ways. It's more a matter of a thinking teacher then of training statically (a big no-no from the point of closing counters if you ask me).

Amir

[chris davis 200]

Good post.

By tsuki i do not necisarily refer to the ability of Uke to effect a counter to the technique you are applying (using Punches, sweeps etc) - more to effect an escape, or block from the technique (using superior body angle and adaptiveness, stopping the technique and setting the above counter).

If we take the example of Judo as highlighted earlier.
If 2 experienced judo ka are competing they generally are very aware of the movement of their opponent and are able to counter/ escape a huge array of techniques before a winning move is applied. This is due to the sensitivity of there body to the movement of their opponents.

Now if we put this level of body knowledge to your uke would the level of control contained in many aikido techniques be sufficient in the way they are practiced.

Again the general impression is that to counter something or escape from something you need to oppose it in some way. Why should this be the case? If i attack with a pull and you push, why shouldnt i be able to use the same prenciples you are using to effect the counter to your movement. This is the fluidity of movement that can be obtained. When training in Ba gua throwing or locking methods, there is a distinct concideration that the opponent will be able to counter unless you have a superior fighting line, position or leverage, and the mind must be in a state where the counter of counters to your move is easy to effect.

This is true of Daito ryu too (from My experience)the concideration of the opponents ability is present in Ukes mind and Tori's mind. The Uke attacks as a skilled attacker, the tori defends as a skilled defender. The attacker attacks as a swordsman would, if the attack is shomen or similar.

In aikido (from my limited expreience) it seems to be that Tori is an experienced defender and Tori is an amature attacker with good Ukemi. The shomen attack seems to be one of someone that does not have skill in swordsmanship, charging through the Tori.

Of course there is nothing wrong with this because the world is not full of proffesional fighters. But i feel that this may be the situation that has caused Tsuki in the techniques. To see an attacker charging at the defender and taking Ukemi without being touched is where this problem is shown to the extreme.

The attacker is blindly attacking without the natural reaction of a skilled fighter.

Becuase Aikido ka are used to this 'Uke giving up' i believe that the techniques have developed larger and larger tsuki.

It can been seen at its most extreme in Ki aikido, at its least in Yoshinkan, and aikikai in the middle (I have trained with people from these, and this is just my opinion - no offence meant).

Please do not think that i have a problem with the effectiveness of aikido i know that when applied by a person that knows what they are doing it is very effective.

My question is aimed at the training methods that are present, and the assumptions of the people that i have trained with. The assumption that i do not have the ability to adapt, and that i will blindly follow the path they wish me to take.

A good discussion ppl,

Cheers
Chris Davis

[Aikisean]

Keep training but beware of instructors and students who "think" they know what they are talking about. You seem to understand body mechanics and the psychology of confrontation enough to filter out any bulls**t instruction. So keep the bulls**t filter on high, following the reasoning of how technique is applied, try it, question it, then test it.