Dojo breakers et al.

[renfield_kuroda]

The great thing about koryu is that NO ONE has an innate right to study. You MUST be invited. It is a privilege.
We have a standing open door policy: Niina-gosoke says anyone, regardless of previous/current experience or lack thereof can come in.
But we still reserve the right to say no, for whatever reason. Don't like it? Go study something else.

Regards,
r e n

[Vapour]

Just to correct some misconception, cross training is common in Japan. I gurantees you that most police on the stree has more than one blackbelt in judo, kendo or aikido. And as far as I know large number of famous Japanese marital artis studied multiple martial arts. Now, top judo players may be of exception to this rule because the demand for competition won't allow them to train in other arts but this is practical reason not moral one. Even that you find someone like Abe, who was to become the youngest (18 years I think) national champion who later practiced aikido and, in fact, are masters of god know how many different martial arts. You could offend your instructor if you go to train in the school which practice the same art (like shotokan and goruryu or worse the same shotokan school) because that is considered as telling off your instructor that he is not good enough.

More standard attitude of Japan is that one shouldn't screw around until you become proficient in the art you are studying. Very practical and sensitive approach. I serve one lord is minorty practice even in Japan.

[Kimpatsu]

Cross-training in karate is not common practice in Japan. Serving one master is the norm.
Also, is Judo really a martial art these days? It's become such an Olympic sport with different coloured dogi. Any judoka with opinions?

[Jock Armstrong]

Ren and Vapour- nailed it on the head. You should be proficient in something before you experiment in something else.If the systems have divergent concepts, you are gonna have problems.


As always, the sensei reserves the right to refuse you if he so desires.

If some loudmouth challenges you- take him outside and smash him. He doesn't deserve to be in your dojo. Take off your jacket and belt, put on a t-shirt and runners and punch/wrestle/choke/kick the sh*t out of him. You'll find most of them will gut out before you reach the door. It may not be PC but it does work I assure you.Get him to sign a waiver absolving you for all injury he may recieve. Its legally not worth the paper its written on but you have to be there to see appreciate how far an idiots eyes can bug out when you hand it to him with a straight face.Quite a few gut out right then.

[Pirahna]

This "version" of budo that Tony feels we must live up to is in my opinion dangerous not too mention outdated.

As i understand it Japan is a democracy and that entails everybody having rights - one of those inalienable rights is the ability to choose and express free thought. If I choose to cross train and do so in the appropiate manner then i am exercising my democratic right to broaden and deepen my knowledge whilst at the same time acknowledging that i do not have all the answers. One of the core tenets of the serious budoka i would have thought. Further to that i would guess that a secure instructor and students would not have a problem with someone attempting to broaden their horizons - resorting to some outdated and totally inappropiate notion of a feudal / caste relationship to out of hand reject someone and also take insult at their approach is being just a bit precious in my book.


"There is everything wrong with it. He has betrayed his master, and insulted ours."

"These aren't organisational standrds, they're budo standards. Just as murder is a crime everywhere, so betrayal is universal."


I am intrigued as to the pedestal that you must be placing "extraordinary martial artists yet normal everyday human beings" on that this action is compared in evocative terms to murder? You write of what appears to be your impression of a masters feelings of "betrayal" (and i wonder if he thinks as much of this as you do) for what seems to be such a minor incident? No man is a god and acting like martial arts instructors deserve god like status serves neither the leader nor the follower. Certainly is intriguing why some people feel that a part time martial arts instructor who is merely one in a sea of competing part time martial instructors should have some feudal relationship over the students? The ability of an instructor to do graceful and powerful moves does not autmotically mean that his authority should extend over any aspect of your person outside of class.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Pirahna
This "version" of budo that Tony feels we must live up to is in my opinion dangerous not too mention outdated.

I didn't that treason went in and out of fashion.
Remember: your sensei are your parents. Would you betray them so casually?
Training is very democtratic; if you don't like the rules, don't train. But don't you dare dojo-hop. What do you expect to get out of it? To learn techniques not accessible on your own syllabus? This attitude stems from an arrogance that you can learn everything there is to be learned, and that you are democratically the equal of your sensei. You aren't. You are very much your sensei's inferior and must conduct yourself accordingly.

[Pirahna]

Tony,

That is silly and to compare the two is flawed right from the outset. Example - if my sensei opts out of training me one day in the future because of demands on him from work or family (and i have absolutely no say in this nor should i as i am a lesser minion according to you) then do i consider myself an orphan to roam the martial arts world parentless? Or do i adopt a new parent? Or do they adopt me? My sensei would never even try to equate, state or act as though he were my parent nor would i accept it. To ascribe familial status to a person whom in comparison to my actual family is just the new kid on the block is totally disrespectful to your family.

Also dojo hopping is the extreme of this cross training behaviour - you have been provided with many examples of a more reasonable example of Japanese training in differring arts and with the blessings of their instructors so your all encompassing statement seems to be directly contradicted by actual practice. lets focus on that rather than the extreme practice which i agree is not good.

Is this a case of trying to be more Japanese than the Japanese?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Pirahna
That is silly and to compare the two is flawed right from the outset. Example - if my sensei opts out of training me one day in the future because of demands on him from work or family (and i have absolutely no say in this nor should i as i am a lesser minion according to you) then do i consider myself an orphan to roam the martial arts world parentless?

Why would your sensei ever opt out? It is his responsibility to ensure that he is available to teach; that is the the agreement between you. If, however, something necessitated the closure of that branch, then you would be free to seek a new sensei. But you cannot serve two masters at once, which is why cross-training is not acceptable.
More Japanese than japanese? A million Japanese Shorinji Kenshi don't think so.

[Steve Delaney]

In feudal Japan, certain warriors were picked by their lords to become disciples of various bugei ryuha. They were even paid handsome sums of money for recieving licences of proficiency in their chosen military science, ranging from swords to several Koku of rice.

Does anyone who attended the international Budo Seminar in Katsuura two years ago remember the Kobudo lecture and experience with Kobori ryu Tosuijutsu Shihan, Koga Sensei?

His speech provided quite an insight into how budo was learned back in the day. You were loyal to your fief and your lord and you learned as much as possible from anywhere you could to make sure that when the worst situation possible came, you would be prepared to do what was needed to defend your fiefdom. In those days it was a matter of necessity to know as much as possible about military science, be it tactics, swimming in armour, gunnery, archery or fencing.

What about the founder of Shinkage ryu, Kamiizumi Ise-No-Kami Nobutsuna? If he hadn't studied Katori Shinto ryu and just stuck to Kage ryu, where would the Yagyu family be right now? Would they have had Tokugawa Ieyasu's ear and political pull?

Nah I don't think so.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Saitama Steve
In those days it was a matter of necessity to know as much as possible about military science, be it tactics, swimming in armour, gunnery, archery or fencing.

But these are bujutsu, Steve, not budo. The purpose behind training is different.

Originally posted by Saitama Steve
What about the founder of Shinkage ryu, Kamiizumi Ise-No-Kami Nobutsuna?

He was a genius (presumably), like Kaiso. These dojo-hoppers are not.

[Pirahna]

"Why would your sensei ever opt out?"


Physically incapicatated, location change, economically unviable, familial demands, etc. How many more real world examples would you like Tony?

"A million Japanese Shorinji Kenshi don't think so."


But many more do think so - if you think numbers in one organisation validates your all encompassing ideas then i would think that greater numbers in a greater number of organisations who think and act differently overrides YOUR organisations ideas. defend your idea by all means but do not try to state that everyone who has different ideas to you is wrong. Especially when the people you seek to emulate contradict you. Also "serve" two masters - i serve noone nor expect anyone to serve me. Again this feudal viewpoint is a relic and society has moved on - hang on perhaps it has not!


BTW as you will see i am from Australia, i am trying to not laugh at the idea of an Aussie martial artist going home and saying to grandpa (who probably fought in WW2 and saw dozens of mates die at the hands of inhumane Japanese treatment) that a martial arts teacher is equal to their parents. A quick trip down to the local Returned Servicemen's Leauge and being pummelled by Bruce Ruxton would quickly avow anyone of that notion.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Pirahna
Physically incapicatated, location change, economically unviable, familial demands, etc. How many more real world examples would you like Tony?

What do you mean, economically unviable? You're talking like a karateya, not a budoka. Certainly not familial demands; the family are married to the art as well. Physical incapacitation (like I said, unforeseen death) does occur, but that's when you have a network to take over.

Originally posted by Pirahna
But many more do think

Such as? Name them, please.

Originally posted by Pirahna
Also "serve" two masters - i serve noone nor expect anyone to serve me. Again this feudal viewpoint is a relic and society has moved on - hang on perhaps it has not and we should seek the opinion

You are servant to your branch master. You have apprenticed yourself to him, and thus are required to serve, even in simple ways, such as carrying his bag for him and folding his dogi after training.

Originally posted by Pirahna
BTW as you will see i am from Australia, i am trying to not laugh at the idea of an Aussie martial artist going home and saying to grandpa (who probably fought in WW2 and saw dozens of mates die at the hands of inhumane Japanese treatment) that a martial arts teacher is equal to their parents. A quick trip down to the local Returned Servicemen's Leauge and being pummelled by Bruce Ruxton would quickly avow anyone of that notion.

I see; so Grandpa hates the Japanese because of a war that ended over half a century ago?
If you don't want to learn budo, fine. But don't try to hijack it. If you don't like the destination, don't get on the boat. But you certainly NEVER wait until the boat has set sail, and then tell the captain that you don't like where he's taking the ship.

[Steve Delaney]

There isn't a real technical difference between bujutsu and budo. Donn F. Dreager used those terms to clarify to laymen who were reading his books the difference between classical and modern martial arts.

And if you want to argue semantics, there are always the KobuDO enbutaikai you can come and attend and watch some genuine koryu buJUTSU. The next big one is in November at Meiji Jingu on the 3rd.

The founders of martial disciplines were just the same as you an I, Tony. They were men. What made them different was that they dedicated themselves to their study and trained fanatically. What's more, they had empirical knowledge from actually using what they had learned in combat.

That's the difference between the parcticioners from those particular era and the modern practicioners of budo - The amount they train and the amount of experience they have in making it work. We should try to respect the founders of certain schools and disciplines of budo, but not deify them.

[Pirahna]

Tony,

"Physical incapacitation (like I said, unforeseen death) does occur, but that's when you have a network to take over."

So sort of like an adoption agency? And of course politics can never get in the way can it? We have all seen the smooth succession of lineage for organisations such as Kyokushin, Goju, etc.

"so Grandpa hates the Japanese because of a war that ended over half a century ago?"

No - more like hates people that dismiss sufferring with pithy phrases such as the above, when you live everyday with injuries inflicted as a POW then you have been at the sharp end of the stick. A modern day martial arts teacher such as yourself would neither know nor probably appreciate that situation. And that Budo that you keep holding up - he did not see much of that demonstrated by the Japanese in the real world. Funny that - how these all encompassing ideas espoused by those professing to be our seniors are rarely held nor practiced by them.

"You are servant to your branch master. You have apprenticed yourself to him, and thus are required to serve, even in simple ways, such as carrying his bag for him and folding his dogi after training."

Oh please - what did his mummy not teach him how to be independent. I do not see the defintion of being a martial artist espousing the principles of budo as being how many lackeys you can surround yourself with and how much mind control you can hold over them. Looking after the training venue - sure, no problem, builds team work and respect for the premises but trotting after a senior doing little favours - i have seen this and without exception the Japanese i have seen have been amused and a little uncomfortable at the fuss.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Saitama Steve
There isn't a real technical difference between bujutsu and budo.

The difference between budo and bujutsu is in the code. Bujutsu has no ethical or spiritual side; budo is training for the express purpose of self-betterment.
I wrote about this at length once before, but I think the data was lost in a major e-budo crash shortly after.