Dojo breakers et al.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Pirahna
"Physical incapacitation (like I said, unforeseen death) does occur, but that's when you have a network to take over."
So sort of like an adoption agency? And of course politics can never get in the way can it? We have all seen the smooth succession of lineage for organisations such as Kyokushin, Goju, etc.

I have no idea about those organisations. I'm talking about Shorinji Kempo. If, as has happened, a branch master dies suddenly, a replacement is found. This has included people moving location to take over.

Originally posted by Pirahna
"so Grandpa hates the Japanese because of a war that ended over half a century ago?"
No - more like hates people that dismiss sufferring with pithy phrases such as the above, when you live everyday with injuries inflicted as a POW then you have been at the sharp end of the stick.

But does your grandfather hate ALL Japanese, including ones my age, who weren't even born during WWII? Who said anything about dismissing his suffering, anyway? You are attacking a strawman because you are blinded by your hate for me. Kaiso suffered during the war as well, but he didn't go around dismissing all the Chinese or all the Russians.

Originally posted by Pirahna
A modern day martial arts teacher such as yourself would neither know nor probably appreciate that situation.

I'm not a teacher.

Originally posted by Pirahna
And that Budo that you keep holding up - he did not see much of that demonstrated by the Japanese in the real world. Funny that - how these all encompassing ideas espoused by those professing to be our seniors are rarely held nor practiced by them.

You really don't know many Shorinji Kenshi, do you? We live by our code all the time.

Originally posted by Pirahna
"You are servant to your branch master. You have apprenticed yourself to him, and thus are required to serve, even in simple ways, such as carrying his bag for him and folding his dogi after training."
Oh please - what did his mummy not teach him how to be independent.

It's not a question of independence; why won't you show him gratitude for agreeing to teach you? If you like learning your art, why don't you buy him chocolates?
I've even been part of a team that painted sensei's house for him, once.

Originally posted by Pirahna
I do not see the defintion of being a martial artist espousing the principles of budo as being how many lackeys you can surround yourself with and how much mind control you can hold over them.

This shows you totally fail to understand the ethos of budo. This is not about what you can get out of it; it's about being eternally grateful for what sensei has done for you.

Originally posted by Pirahna
Looking after the training venue - sure, no problem, builds team work and respect for the premises but trotting after a senior doing little favours - i have seen this and without exception the Japanese i have seen have been amused and a little uncomfortable at the fuss.

Again, you clearly don't know any Shorinji Kenshi. Where in Oz are you? Is there a nearby branch you could visit to observe?

[Pirahna]

Tony,


"This shows you totally fail to understand the ethos of budo. This is not about what you can get out of it; it's about being eternally grateful for what sensei has done for you."


Oh i understand it allright - just do not agree that being "eternally grateful" is the right response for most martial arts practioners. Your organisation seems to take these values and live them every day -good for you however those that have differring ideals are not wrong especially when they can point to many native Japanese who do exactly the same both on an individual and organisational basis. You asked for an example - i will give you one. Sosai Mas Oyama sent his three best fighters to Bangkok in the fifties to train for the challenge to Muay Thai - an early example of cross training.

Thanks for the invite but i really have no interest in Shorinji Kempo nor "Budo" as many of these organisations espouse - part of the reason i left Goju near sixteen years ago and went to Muay Thai. The respect is in the ring - and that's all we care about. No messing about with politics, bowing and scraping (and yes i too have painted a house for my old sensei and all whilst having just recovered from a serious work accident - is that devoted enough) and having to agree with people whose sole claim to fame that they walked through a door a minute prior to you.

[Jock Armstrong]

Tony, much as I like you, to say that bujutsu has no ethical or philosophical side is just foolish. Where do you think budo got those things from? I agree there is a different emphasis placed on it in those different ways/methods/ryu.

And don't be disparaging of karateka. I am one [among other things]

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Pirahna
Oh i understand it allright - just do not agree that being "eternally grateful" is the right response for most martial arts practioners. Your organisation seems to take these values and live them every day -good for you however those that have differring ideals are not wrong especially when they can point to many native Japanese who do exactly the same both on an individual and organisational basis. You asked for an example - i will give you one. Sosai Mas Oyama sent his three best fighters to Bangkok in the fifties to train for the challenge to Muay Thai - an early example of cross training.

Mas Oyama was Korean.
Again, you're not talking about Shorinji Kempo, and anyway, Kyokushin is about competition, not self-improvement. That makes it kakutogi, not budo.

Originally posted by Pirahna
Thanks for the invite but i really have no interest in Shorinji Kempo nor "Budo" as many of these organisations espouse - part of the reason i left Goju near sixteen years ago and went to Muay Thai. The respect is in the ring - and that's all we care about.

Yes, I get it; you're into kakutogi, not budo. No self-improvement, and a set of rules in combat. Understood.
But if you're not doing a Japanese art, why are you on e-budo?

Originally posted by Pirahna
No messing about with politics, bowing and scraping (and yes i too have painted a house for my old sensei and all whilst having just recovered from a serious work accident - is that devoted enough) and having to agree with people whose sole claim to fame that they walked through a door a minute prior to you.

Where's the politics? You show your ignorance with every post. "Bowing and scraping"? Where's your gratitude to the man who has brought you so much? You're clearly in it all for yourself. What does society benefit from your actions in the ring? How do you improve people's lot in life? What is your contribution to a wider world?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Jock Armstrong
Tony, much as I like you, to say that bujutsu has no ethical or philosophical side is just foolish. Where do you think budo got those things from? I agree there is a different emphasis placed on it in those different ways/methods/ryu.:

Budo became such when it added the ethics that were missing from bujutsu. Give me an example of an explicit bujutsu ethos, Jock.

Originally posted by Jock Armstrong
And don't be disparaging of karateka. I am one [among other things]

I'm not. Don't read into my posts things that aren't there.

[Mekugi]

Wonderful Bod.

Kudos...

-Russ

Originally posted by Bod
In Judo we say cool, but by Judo rules, and it will cost you £6. You can fight us all, and come baack next week and do it all over again. You can become a member if you like.

[Mekugi]

The 99 Precipts of the Take'uchi ryu- ethics and horse care in the same vein. I suppose they are not so much ethics as they are a code...perhaps.

Maybe too much cross-tossing of the "budo-bujutsu" theme? IMHO Budo is bujutsu with another name. Then again I don't thinks what people call sports are really sports at all but games, with sport ethics applied. Sport itself is a higher calling IMHO...then again we know what I am full of....


BTW I challenge both Jock and Tony to a game of "Drunken Statesman" up at the next Tokyo drinkup. That is, there is an arguement placed on the table. Each of you have a beer. The one that can slam the beer fastest gets to speak. Rebuttal is again decided by another drinkng contest, if the speaker wins then they get next subject. If the incumbant wins, they can choose to rebute and speak or to change subject which is then decided by another beer slamming contest. With pints this gets out of control quickly, but the more people fun it is! That'll settle things.

-R

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Budo became such when it added the ethics that were missing from bujutsu. Give me an example of an explicit bujutsu ethos, Jock.

[Pirahna]

Tony,
Yes Oyama was Korean and he did live in Japan and his organisation is based in Japan and many Japanese trained with him and continue to train in the style. And yes - i am not talking about Shorinji Kempo. What gave it away - the fact that i stated Kyokushin?


Are you deliberately exagerrating and misreading to bolster weak points or do you really not get it? Stop with the amateur psychological analysis will ya?

"No self-improvement, and a set of rules in combat. Understood."

No, Tony clearly not understood. Your next comment shows that.


"But if you're not doing a Japanese art, why are you on e-budo?"


I do Tony, just not one that has your values. Read again or even better check my bio. Not hard to do. But please forgive me if you think i should not be on e-budo. I will try not to offend.

"What does society benefit from your actions in the ring? How do you improve people's lot in life? What is your contribution to a wider world"


Please Tony get off the soap box. How does society benefit from what you do? I know your sensei does but the average man in the street could care less about what you do and how you do it. And so could I.

I will take my leave now and let others have a say - you have your opinions but dont try to force them on others. And especially dont try and say people "hate" you when they merely disagree with you.

[IchiRiKen1]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
But you cannot serve two masters at once, which is why cross-training is not acceptable.

Tony,

I think that it might be an American thing... Maybe not just confined to us Yanks, either, so maybe it is a Western thing.

In the art I study, it was once a requirement that before you could go beyond a particular senior grade you had to go out of the school, study another art and reach at least shodan in it before applying for higher grading in our art. The purpose was not to add techniques or increase one's own arsenal, but only to expand the individual's understanding and perspective on martial arts as a whole. Musashi said that "when you have studied the Way broadly enough, you will see it in all things," and though I am knowingly extrapolating overly liberally with that quote, it applies none the less. By having a larger base of experience on which to draw, you can better understand whatever art you are primarily devoted to.

I have to be honest (because I like and respect you, otherwise I'd blow smoke at you and not care), the tone you take regarding your devotion to Shorinji Kempo bothers me, but I respect your feelings on it. I'm not trying to contest the issue of "dojo hopping" (I am against that, though I am guilty of having done it once, unintentionally) - it shouldn't be done. If someone is going to train in a style, they should remain until they at least attain a senior level of understanding or they should abandon the idea entirely. However, training in multiple arts (just not simultaneously) is not a bad thing. I happen to be lucky that my teacher trained under several people over the years (not simultaneously), and have been encouraged to broaden my horizons. I remain true to Yiliquan, no matter what other arts I may be interested in learning more about.

Gambarimasu.

(By the by, what do Gassho and Kesshu mean? You use those terms all the time, and I know they are Shorinji Kempo related somehow...)

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Mekugi
The 99 Precipts of the Take'uchi ryu- ethics and horse care in the same vein. I suppose they are not so much ethics as they are a code...perhaps. Maybe too much cross-tossing of the "budo-bujutsu" theme? IMHO Budo is bujutsu with another name. Then again I don't thinks what people call sports are really sports at all but games, with sport ethics applied.

But how do they relate to the improving of the individual? If budo and bujutsu really were one and the same, there wouldn't be two different words.

Originally posted by Mekugi
Sport itself is a higher calling IMHO...

What does being an Olympic medallist benefit the world? Budo is the higher calling, because it aims to improve the quality of the individual, and thus society.

Originally posted by Mekugi
then again we know what I am full of....

Beer?

Originally posted by Mekugi
BTW I challenge both Jock and Tony to a game of "Drunken Statesman" up at the next Tokyo drinkup. That is, there is an arguement placed on the table. Each of you have a beer. The one that can slam the beer fastest gets to speak. Rebuttal is again decided by another drinkng contest, if the speaker wins then they get next subject. If the incumbant wins, they can choose to rebute and speak or to change subject which is then decided by another beer slamming contest. With pints this gets out of control quickly, but the more people fun it is! That'll settle things.

I don't see how that will change the validity of my argument. far better to play the X-Files Drinking game. Every time Mulder or Scully go somewhere dark and creepy and one of them drops their flashlight or their gun, you frink a pint. If the words at the beginning say something other than "The Truth Is Out There", you drink the bar dry...

[Jock Armstrong]

Russ, you should be a diplomat at the UN- we could solve all the wprlds problems!!
Tony, maybe you didn't mean to be disparaging of karateka but "now you are thinking like a karateka" comment certainly read as such, in the context.
TKSR and many oother old bujutsu emphasise that combat should be a last resort. The old saying that "a good sword is one that stays in the scabbard." is a very old one, predating the formal intro of budo as opposed to bujutsu. That is an ethic [or a philosophy if you like].

Its to easy to misread or be misread on posts. I second Russ's idea. Be gentle with me though- I'm getting on and can hurt myself drinking pints!!

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by IchiRiKen1
I think that it might be an American thing... Maybe not just confined to us Yanks, either, so maybe it is a Western thing.

But we are discussing Japanese arts.

Originally posted by IchiRiKen1
In the art I study, it was once a requirement that before you could go beyond a particular senior grade you had to go out of the school, study another art and reach at least shodan in it before applying for higher grading in our art. The purpose was not to add techniques or increase one's own arsenal, but only to expand the individual's understanding and perspective on martial arts as a whole. Musashi said that "when you have studied the Way broadly enough, you will see it in all things," and though I am knowingly extrapolating overly liberally with that quote, it applies none the less. By having a larger base of experience on which to draw, you can better understand whatever art you are primarily devoted to.

Musashi lived in barbaric times. If you advocate dojo breaking, don't be surprised by the consequences.

Originally posted by IchiRiKen1
I have to be honest (because I like and respect you, otherwise I'd blow smoke at you and not care), the tone you take regarding your devotion to Shorinji Kempo bothers me, but I respect your feelings on it.

If you're not this devoted to your own art, why are you studying it?

Originally posted by IchiRiKen1
(By the by, what do Gassho and Kesshu mean? You use those terms all the time, and I know they are Shorinji Kempo related somehow...)

Salute and vale. I use them to other Kenshi on the boards.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Jock Armstrong
Its to easy to misread or be misread on posts. I second Russ's idea. Be gentle with me though- I'm getting on and can hurt myself drinking pints!!

Let's drink pints of whisky!

[Mekugi]

Judo isn't a martial art until they start doing the "kata", IMHO. What you have until then are the larvae/nymph stages that spend a great deal of time playing games with one another to burn off bad energy. Technical aspects may or may not be lost on them- and the game aspect had (or still, has) a purpose. What goes on in the Olympics are a big part of that game IMHO and it makes money for "them" (The Kodokan and the various affiliated judo regimes around the world)- the ones that stick around and get serious about Judo are the ones that are doing the martial art.
Thinking of it, I believe Judo has perhaps the longest weeding out period of any martial art.

Also, a lot depends on the instructor you have. I know a gentleman in Canada that was very much into the shiai game, however his kata was by far the best around. Matter of fact rumor has it that they would call him while he was still in Japan and ask him to properly teach the kata to people.

-Russ

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Cross-training in karate is not common practice in Japan. Serving one master is the norm.
Also, is Judo really a martial art these days? It's become such an Olympic sport with different coloured dogi. Any judoka with opinions?

[Mekugi]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
But how do they relate to the improving of the individual? If budo and bujutsu really were one and the same, there wouldn't be two different words.

I dunno personally. I have read them in English from one of Skoss' books. Never really attempted to live up to them. More like the "Notebook of Lazerous Long", but I can reckon there is a moral code in there somewhere, and some hints at morality.

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
What does being an Olympic medallist benefit the world? Budo is the higher calling, because it aims to improve the quality of the individual, and thus society.

Those are games in the Olympics and not sports. I come from the Hemingway school of Sports- so those aren't sports to me. Getting an Olympic medal doesn't forge the soul or spirit, I agree. True sports, however, should- and there is a strict moral code to being "sporting".

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Beer?

Beer me.

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
I don't see how that will change the validity of my argument. far better to play the X-Files Drinking game. Every time Mulder or Scully go somewhere dark and creepy and one of them drops their flashlight or their gun, you frink a pint. If the words at the beginning say something other than "The Truth Is Out There", you drink the bar dry...

You can't see how it changes the validity of the arguement sober. By the end of the game when you are dry humping the wall you "will see the light"