Martial Arts infidelity

[kage110]

My sensei has no problem with me trying other forms of training. In fact he actively encourages me to do so but does not always do so with other people. I guess he makes his decision on a student by student basis

Bruce (glad2bhere) said it first:

If I am reading myself right, what I am advocating is making the art of your selection better as opposed to stepping outside of your own art to another art and trying to meld the two together.

I am not out to learn a set of techniques, I am trying to learn skills to help me survive in any situation.

I am probably too keen on maintaining my own individual freedom to allow myself to tie myself to one particular art or one particular sensei. Different strokes for different folks.

[Kimpatsu]

So you'd steal from your sensei if it helped to improve your financial situation? What about stealing from your parents? Would you do that, too?
Tying yourself to a sensei is what being a budoka means. If you're looking for shortcuts, buy a gun. You cn't act like Obi-Wan Kenobi that way, but you can't in self-defence for real, anyway. And a gun is a lot more realistic than dojo-hopping in search of quick and easy answers.

[kage110]

So you'd steal from your sensei if it helped to improve your financial situation? What about stealing from your parents? Would you do that, too?
Tying yourself to a sensei is what being a budoka means. If you're looking for shortcuts, buy a gun. You cn't act like Obi-Wan Kenobi that way, but you can't in self-defence for real, anyway. And a gun is a lot more realistic than dojo-hopping in search of quick and easy answers.

I am not sure what you are getting at, Tony. How do you get from 'being encouraged to learn from many sources' to 'stealing from my teacher'? I don't steal from my sensei in a financial sense as he does not make a living from teaching the MA. I don't steal his techniques as he gives me what he thinks I should have on the basis of what he knows about me. He encourages me to learn and develop in all areas of my life and acknowledges that he can't teach me everything I want, or need, to know. This man is my friend even more than he is my martial art teacher and as he is not as well off as me I have actually helped support him in a number of ways, inside and outside of the dojo.

As far as stealing from my parents...My family means a lot to me and I support them in many ways, including financially when required, as they support me. However, my relationship with my surviving parent is not a typical parent/child relationship in that I have always been encouraged to go out and make my own way in the world. My parents never, ever claimed to be the last word on anything and they have always supported me in whatever I have done, even if that was counter to their basic beliefs.

I actually envy those of you who have a really close student/teacher tie where you have apprenticed yourselves to one art and perhaps one person but it doesn't work for me and there is no reason it should work for everyone. Believe me, if I can find that one person who can teach me all I want to know...I will stick to them like glue! However, I do not believe anyone is the last word on anything and certainly not over my own judgement.

Respectfully,

[Vapour]

I have to agree with kage here. If you paid your fees and the instructor taught what you paid for, it is called commercial transaction not stealing.

If you getting into whole issue of instructor is giving you more than that, flip side is that he is demanding more than money from you. It is still exchange transaction if not commercial. I'm not saying it is entirely bad if you like whole respect and honour stuff. Just that I found this "do martial arts and become a better person" thingy to be bit . The worst manifestation of this is in taichi, another arts I practice.

My judo instructor (another Japanese national) actually tell every senior student (as in not being teengager) to call him by his first name outside dojo. To be honest, I find it impossible to call him by his first name when I'm talking to him in Japanese. But we both know that it is matter of etiquet and not because my instrucot is a better person.

[meat]

I agree with everything that was said in the post above, but would also like to add something. For starters, jujutsu is my main art and always will be, just because I choose to do something else for some fun does not mean I am betraying my sensei. If you went to an archery class and then decided you'd like to learn the flute on a free day, where is the problem? I'm not talking about stealing techniques from anyone. I want to go out and see what other people's points of view are. Just because someone does something differently it doesn't mean I should just pretend it doesn't exist. Knowledge is power, only listening to one person's view and shutting out everything else is stupid.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Vapour
I have to agree with kage here. If you paid your fees and the instructor taught what you paid for, it is called commercial transaction not stealing.

Commercial transactions are the antithesis of budo. This is not about being a karateya; pay me $5 and I teach you one technique; pay me another $5 and I teach you the next technique. Your sensei is your parents, but he's also your wife. If you don't sleep around, why play around with arts other than the one to which you vowed loyalty, forsaking all others, just like marriage? For that, and that alone, is true budo.

[Vapour]

Just to bring an example, Morihei Ueshiba learned Aikijujitu from Takeda Sokaku in exactly the fashion you described. Morihei paid for each technique. Takeda Sokaku also demand all of his kyoju dairi (instructor certificate holder including Ueshiba), 2 (or 3) yen for each student they teach, a considerable sum at that time. Of course, students did maintain respectable relationship to Takeda Sokaku but money do always come into it if it is Iemoto system.

Anyway, I did mention different exchange relationships, the one based on money and the other based of respect (obedience?). In reality, there are no purely respect or money based relationship. Even in marriage, money is BIIIIG problem, isn't it.

The one thing you are missing here is that at least in non feudal soceity, any sort of exchange relationship whether it is based on money, respect or love (in case of marriage) should be concensual. As title indicate, some people do indeed get pissed off if someone don't date him/her exclusively but there is absolutely nothing you can do about it except of disegaging relationship. But if you are charging him/her money, at this point, I think you sort of taking yourself out of that disengaginment option, IMO.

And I should remind you that instructor can have as many students as he like just like having many wife is o.k. in some society while wife (student) can't have as many husband (instructor) as s/he like. This bring to the core of the problem.

This arrangement work because there are underlying assumption of inequality between husband/wife and instructor/student. Now I don't go like feminist nazi and go around insisting calling every instructor by their first name even if they prefered to be called sensei. I just do it as etiqute, not because of my feeling that good student (wife) is a obedient one.

You might think respect thing is essential to budo. True, but more correct thing is to say that respect=obedient thing is essential to ORIENTAL martial arts. And one can have teacher/student relationship with respect without obedience.

[Amir]

Mt teacher is actually teaching more then one M.A. and so he can actively recommend some students to shift Art or add another M.A. to their studies.

He also encourages us to learn from more then one source, I.E. find other GOOD teachers and learn from them, at least for a while. Each teacher has a different concept of Budo and Martial practice. If one is to find his own way, one must find more sources of info.

He often compares this to the person who read just single book on a subject versus the one whom has read several books. The first may have chosen a great book, by a well known writer, but he would only get that writers point of view. Any claims that contradict the writer are likely to escape him. The second reader, is much more likely to have encountered disagreement between the writers, and had to think to himself. Hence his understanding of the subject will be much better...

As for the moral issue: It's only a problem if you make it a problem. If you are honest and doesn't hide anything from your teacher, why should there be any problem ?
I know my system founder learned more then one Koryu style in early 20th century Japan. One of our Shihans has been learning Koryu weapons styles before he joined our system, in the 50s & 60S Japan, those teacher recommended each-other and sometimes wouldn't accept him, unless he went to learn something else with another teacher first (He wanted to learn Ksarigama, they sent him to learn Naginata first who sent him to learn Nito as well who sent him toKenjutsu and Wakizashi study ...). And there are numerous older and well documented prominent figured in budo, whom have learned more then one style. So why should it be wrong ?

The only infidelity could be in the deception of your teacher. If you don't do that - I can see no problem!

Amir

[kage110]

If you don't sleep around, why play around with arts other than the one to which you vowed loyalty, forsaking all others, just like marriage? For that, and that alone, is true budo.

Tony, that seems to be a very Christian definition of what marriage is about. And again, it is down to the relationship you have with your teacher or your wife. If honesty is present then what is the problem? Adultery is about betrayal, it does not have to be interpreted as ‘having any relations with someone other than you wife/teacher’.

Going back to me for a second , I would be happy to learn one art to the exclusion of all others. I even know the art I want to learn but I cannot follow that path right now because there are no teachers available near where I live. Even if there were the only ones I would really want to devote myself to are in Japan so I would have to make major changes to my life to accomplish this. In the meantime I learn what I can from who I can and try to be honest with everyone I meet.

[Kimpatsu]

Agreed; adultery is about betrayal.
So don't adulterate your art, and don't betray your sensei.

[kage110]

Agreed. But it is only betrayal if it is against their wishes. If my instructor wishes for me to cross-train then by not cross-training I would be betraying him, wouldn't I?

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Agreed; adultery is about betrayal.
So don't adulterate your art, and don't betray your sensei.

Infidelty works both way, husband and wife. If student is not allowed to have any other instructor, why instructor can screw around by having as many students as he can at one time. If someone think martial art adultery is wrong, s/he should apply the standard to himself/herself first by exculsively devoting to one student at one time.

The argument that husband (instructor) can deal with four wife (student) don't work in my view. That only work if you lower your teaching standard. In top level sports, there is one coach (or even more) per one athlet.

Lastly, if any martial instructor demanded such standard in feudal time, he wouldn't have had any students. It was matter of life and death to know all aspect of combat from sword, hoseriding, archery and jujutu to spear. So every *practicing* samurai learned from as many good teachers as they can. So I really wonder where the idea of loyalty-to-one-martial-arts-instructor-essential-to-budo come from?

[kage110]

Lastly, if any martial instructor demanded such standard in feudal time, he wouldn't have had any students. It was matter of life and death to know all aspect of combat from sword, hoseriding, archery and jujutu to spear. So every *practicing* samurai learned from as many good teachers as they can. So I really wonder where the idea of loyalty-to-one-martial-arts-instructor-essential-to-budo come from?

Exactly!

This reminds me of a e-mail exchange I am having with someone else recently (is that e-mail adultry? ). What does 'traditional' style, or 'traditional' methods of teaching, or 'traditional' Japanese mean? How far back do you go to become 'traditional'? 100 years? 300 years? 500 years? 1000?....

Tony, forgive me if I am wrong, but isn't Shorinji Kempo a relatively new style, ie. codified in the 20th Century? I know it's roots go way deeper and I am not implying that it is not worthy because it is new (far from it, SK - sorry - seems like a very interesting art from my perspective) but is it's emphasis on loyalty a new idea or an older one?

[Kimpatsu]

Old, Hugh. The idea that you don't cross-train has been around in Japan since the year dot. Not only is it a slap in the face to your instructor, turning up at another dojo is an automatic challenge to that dojo's authority.

[Iain]

From a practical perspective, it's best to shop around for a decent dojo and settle down for a good long while when you find one. After you have a decent grounding in your art of choice, you can go on to cross-train or maybe even take up a second art altogether. It makes you a more rounded and competent fighter, and it also exposes you to new ideas that will allow you to improve your existing skills.

From an ethical position, you should find out whether or not your dojo approves of cross training. Of course, if your doing as you should and staying around for the long haul, the dojo mentality should be obvious to you by the time cross-training even becomes an issue. I know students who have left Korean dojos and owe their lives to the fact that their instructor was a raging alcoholic and couldn't put the kick where it was supposed to go (not to cast aspersions on said instructors skills -he was amazing- he was just a drunken jackass).

Personally, if it were my decision alone, I could care less where people under me train as long as they do what they're supposed to during class, it makes no difference to me whether they go to another dojo, go the strip club, or pour melted chocolate on their nipples and let their cat lick it off. If however, you attend a dojo that espouses Tonys point of view, then abide by the rules set down. If you want to train somewhere else bad enough, straight up quit and start anew.