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Thread: Martial Arts infidelity

  1. #46
    Kimpatsu Guest

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    Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
    A students style is never his Sensei's style, and if you suck to your sensei you will not develop as yourself.
    Are you really at the ha or ri stage already? How long have you been training?!

  2. #47
    Kimpatsu Guest

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    Originally posted by heatMiser
    I don't normally like to use examples in place of rational argument, but I'd like to know how Morihei Ueshiba fits into your ideas.
    He was a genius. So was Kaiso. They can study more than one art because they can handle the overlaod. Besides, in Kaiso's case, he didn't cross-train so much as learn one art completely, and then move to the next.
    It always causes me to grind my teeth on this site when people compare themselves to men of that stature. Get real. No one on this board is in their league.

  3. #48
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    Originally posted by Kimpatsu
    when did anyone here call themselves a samurai? Are you reading the same thread?
    You justified your view on the argument that your way is essetnail to budo = "the way of samurai". I'm merely pointing out that it is rather stupid to justify your view solely on the basis thas samurai did it that way, because (1) historical reality didn't reflect the idealised version of the reality (2) even some samurai did practice blind loyalty to the house (not the arts, important distinction here), that is not justification for such practice at all. As I said, some society (even now) stone adulter to death because "god tell them to do it" or "that the way from the time eternal".

    As I said, there is nothing to argue if it is matter of faith. But you have to justify your case on *practicality* rather than *faith* if there is more than point in being loyal for it's own sake.

    However, there is no question that cross training is beneficial. Japanese police usually train in kendo, judo and aikido. Given that it is essential for police to know how to use banton (kendo), how to grapple (judo) and how to restrian suspect(aikido), cross training is matter of pracitical necessity for them.

    Some karate may claim that they have grappling techniques but any honest karate practioner would know that they are no match in grappling against judoka or BJJ practioner. Many arts such as aikido, hapikdo practice weapon but it is unlikely that they have better teaching than some koryu school which specialised in one weapon such as sword, staff or naginata. Nor any of them think that they can outbox boxer because they use atemi.

    The plain truth is that specialised school give better instruction to their specialised purpose. I can certainly accept the an argument that it is more *productive* to wait for cross training until one reach 3rd dan if you train every day. And if you wish to pursue the path of coaching, you wouldn't have time to waste your time on other arts (as in case of judo, for example).

    So far you have given no single *practical* reason why one shouldn't cross train at all. All you seems to say, in essence, is that "this aint' right". That is why it is plain obvious that your view is matter of faith. And again, let me remind my view that such view is backward because it is just *impractical*.
    -Youji Hajime.

    Engrish does not mine strong point

  4. #49
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    Default One proverb

    Originally posted by Ade
    The man who chases two rabbits at once catches neither.
    (Unless he has a shot gun and a lurcher in which case it's rabbit stew again!)
    I hate to quote myself.

    But.

    I have been the kenshi that walks through the door and when the teacher says "what have you done before?" told him the truth.
    "I've tried 16 different martial arts and hold belts in about half of them."
    The look on their faces would illustrate the dojo breakers thread perfectly.
    I've also been the teacher on the end of such responses.

    Ignoring the raging debate about betrayal, what about the confusion?

    I've seen good kenshi quit because they were too confused to carry on.

    It took me at least a year to stop re-chambering my back hand to my waist upon my return to Shorinji Kempo in 1990.
    It confused me and disillusioned me.

    I currently have several cross training kenshi in the club at junior level.
    They'll never amount to anything until they make their mind up to catch one rabbit at a time.
    Because they're learning to walk and trying to do so in two directions and two different ways as directed by two teachers.

    Learn one way, then another, if you want.

    But learn one way first.


    Ade

    PS My original teacher, Sensei Peter was at a drop in session with Jui jitsu and the teacher asked him "what do you want to do?

    his reply "Treat me like a white belt, that's what I am in your dojo, a cup that's full has to empty itself before it can receive."

    I am my teacher's student.
    A man with small testes should never get involved in a fight requiring cojones

  5. #50
    heatMiser Guest

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    He was a genius. So was Kaiso. They can study more than one art because they can handle the overlaod. Besides, in Kaiso's case, he didn't cross-train so much as learn one art completely, and then move to the next.
    'm well aware of the gulf between myself and such people. No pretentions were intended.

    But I think that if you're going to train as hard as they did, then you are going to have to be at their level or do it the way your instructor/teacher recommends.

    If you're like me, and you don't train that seriously, should you really have to make such a commitment to your teacher? If they are ok with it, and so am I, how can you criticise?

    People who know more than you do about their respective arts are welcome to tell you what is and isn't acceptable in thier arts. You are saying that all cross-training not vetted and approved by a suitibly qualified person is betrayal. This is far too sweeping to be true.

    On the other hand, On the strength of this thread alone, I'd be reluctant to dabble in Shorinji Kempo. You're saying that it is only for those who are dedicated and focused on it, and since I don't know better, I'll take that at face value. But only for Shorinji Kempo. Not for arts you don't have experience of.

  6. #51
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    Originally posted by Kimpatsu
    He was a genius. So was Kaiso. They can study more than one art because they can handle the overlaod. Besides, in Kaiso's case, he didn't cross-train so much as learn one art completely, and then move to the next.
    It always causes me to grind my teeth on this site when people compare themselves to men of that stature. Get real. No one on this board is in their league.
    Tony

    Every man, woman and child on this board is worth exactly the same.
    Nobody is above or beneath us.
    I don't worship Doshin So, or Morihei Ueshiba, they have little to do with me or my sphere of experience.
    Comparisons are worthless.
    Don't try and deify Doshin So.
    He had feet of clay, so do the Japanese, and the English and the rest of the world.

    Ade
    A man with small testes should never get involved in a fight requiring cojones

  7. #52
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    Originally posted by Kimpatsu
    Are you really at the ha or ri stage already? How long have you been training?!
    No I am no were near those and I don't think I will for a long time because I still have alot to learn and my technique still needs ALOT of developing which will take a life time as will I always be Shu in a way.

    Just because you are an independent thinker does not mean you don't respect and learn from your teacher.

    Ha and Ri is not about magically waking up from a trance. It's about constantly developing yourself, Ha and Ri are Japanese ways of thinking that acompanies the japanese way of life, i am not japanese nor do i think like one.

    Practice makes you better, not a person, they can only point you in the right direction and help you avoid obsticles and show you the right way.

    Lean on them too much and you will never go forward...

    It's a journey, not a destination as sometimes your way of thinking comes across, Ha and Ri are destinations.

    If one has got their eye on the destination, they only have 1 eye left to find the right path.

    Cheers

    p.s.
    If you really want to know (I've been chopping and changing for about 10 years, but i've been doing Collective Korean styles i.e. stuff from Taekwondo, Hwa Rang, Mook Duk Kwan etc. and Kamon Wing Chun for 4 1/2 years, training at 3 nights a week and all day Sunday.)
    Rev. Matt Boxall AKA Dr. Stupid

    *Puts on wizard hat and robe*

  8. #53
    heatMiser Guest

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    Ade,

    being responsible for bringing the subject up, I should say that deification was not my intent, I was only poining out that there are martial artists who both practise multiple arts and whose abilities are not up for questioning.

    Tony's comments were pitched to include these people, and I felt that this needed to be pointed out.

  9. #54
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    Originally posted by heatMiser
    On the other hand, On the strength of this thread alone, I'd be reluctant to dabble in Shorinji Kempo. You're saying that it is only for those who are dedicated and focused on it, and since I don't know better, I'll take that at face value. But only for Shorinji Kempo. Not for arts you don't have experience of.
    Mate

    We're not all that intense.
    Some of us live in this world.

    Ade
    A man with small testes should never get involved in a fight requiring cojones

  10. #55
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    Originally posted by heatMiser
    ...being responsible for bringing the subject up, I should say that deification was not my intent, I was only poining out that there are martial artists who both practise multiple arts and whose abilities are not up for questioning. Tony's comments were pitched to include these people, and I felt that this needed to be pointed out.
    Tony's a big boy, his comments are his own. I have no doubt that Tony will stand by them, has anybody ever known him to admit that he's wrong?


    Ade
    A man with small testes should never get involved in a fight requiring cojones

  11. #56
    heatMiser Guest

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    Excellent.

    Though I'm not given to dabbling in any case. (Bar an unfortunate end to my three months of Shaolin Kung Fu, but that's another story.)



  12. #57
    heatMiser Guest

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    Originally posted by Ade
    Tony's a big boy, his comments are his own. I have no doubt that Tony will stand by them, has anybody ever known him to admit that he's wrong?


    Ade
    What do you mean!?!

    No-one has ever known him to BE wrong

  13. #58
    Kimpatsu Guest

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    Originally posted by heatMiser
    If you're like me, and you don't train that seriously, should you really have to make such a commitment to your teacher? If they are ok with it, and so am I, how can you criticise?
    Because dilletantism is wrong in any endeavour.
    Originally posted by heatMiser
    People who know more than you do about their respective arts are welcome to tell you what is and isn't acceptable in thier arts. You are saying that all cross-training not vetted and approved by a suitibly qualified person is betrayal. This is far too sweeping to be true.
    People who believe that don't understand the purpose of budo. You can bet good money on it.
    Originally posted by heatMiser
    On the other hand, On the strength of this thread alone, I'd be reluctant to dabble in Shorinji Kempo. You're saying that it is only for those who are dedicated and focused on it, and since I don't know better, I'll take that at face value. But only for Shorinji Kempo. Not for arts you don't have experience of.
    You can't "dabble" in Shorinji Kempo; if you're not committed, don't come and waste our time, or yours. Go down the pub, instead. You'll find it more suited to you. I've seen groups where people lack commitment, and they aren't arts. They social clubs.

  14. #59
    Kimpatsu Guest

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    Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
    Ha and Ri is not about magically waking up from a trance.
    Until you reach the stage of ha, you are not qualified to question what you are told. You can't make up a symbol "x" and say that henceforth, it will replace "d" in your lexicon. You are beholden to your sensei, and should do as he tells you becasue he knows so much more, and better, than you do.

  15. #60
    Kimpatsu Guest

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    Originally posted by heatMiser
    What do you mean!?!
    No-one has ever known him to BE wrong
    That's because I never AM wrong.

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