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Thread: In Search Gankaku's History

  1. #31
    RobertW Guest

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    I find alot of the time with the Japanese that there is a prevalent attitude of reverence for their seniors.


  2. #32
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    Apparently, most of the changes in Shotokan [apart from names] are the result of Funakoshi's son. He was the one who placed emphasis on long zenkutsu dachi [outside of kata] and the low chamber guard position. Most Okinawans used to use moto dachi [resembles old bare knuckle boxing guard ] for actually fighting. I've seen some old photos of Funakoshi doing a demo- his stance is upright and short with his rear arm chambered high, guarding the chest.
    Lurking in dark alleys may be hazardous to other peoples health........

  3. #33
    Gene Williams Guest

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    However, if you look at the stances in Chinese kata, from which most of the Okinawan kata came, many are deep and low. You will also see this in the Bubishi. In Motobu-ha Shito-ryu, we often use a deep zenkutsu, but not wide like Shotokan. Stances in both Okinawan and Chinese kata are more fluid, less rigid than in the Japanese karate ryu (generalization). I actually prefer to make beginners use a deep and somewhat wider zenkutsu because it teaches them a low center of gravity and helps their balance, also builds strong hips and legs. Later, they can shorten it and maintain a low center and look decent. I also like oi-zuki, which really develops nicely if you make 'em do it in deep zenkutsu

  4. #34
    Gene Williams Guest

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    Now, Troof, I did not say "long stances=Kung Fu," just that many Chinese styles use them. You are 100% correct about chambering, however,and I have used almost your exact words in haranguing my students about it. Funny, the first kamae I learned was from an Okinawan Shorin instructor, Higioshi Sensei, who taught me to hold my hands up at chest level, both hands in tate position and feet in hanmi. Gene

  5. #35
    RobertW Guest

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    I agree with Troof on the whole no need for technique evolution on orthodox forms thing. I think changing or adding to forms is not for us. They are what they are.

  6. #36
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    hand at waist at makiwara
    "Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

  7. #37
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    first high stance
    "Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

  8. #38
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    2nd
    "Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

  9. #39
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    and to sum up:
    "Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

  10. #40
    RobertW Guest

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    Sensei Ted,

    Only one thing, as we know when the masteres are advanced in years, their stance gets a little higher. If you look at pictures of Shugoro Nakazato, his stance is a little higher today than it was say 20 -30 years ago...
    I do however agree that Gichin san's stance was higher than Shotokan today.

  11. #41
    RobertW Guest

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    Lee,

    My teacher went up to his sixth Dan under Sokuichi Gibu, one of the men who helped Nakazato with his organization in the beginning. Mr. Gibu separated from the Shorinkan in the 80's and formed the Butokukan. Kikukawa, my teacher, eventually left Gibu Dojo, and opened a Shorinkan Branch Dojo under Gibu before he separated. Eventually with a friend formed Okinawa Shorin ryu Karate Shinkokai in 1985, after studing Shorin ryu with a few other notables Seiki Toma, Kukinohara (can't remember the first name). My background was originally in Shotokan and I switched to train under Kikukawa sensei, after I met him.


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  12. #42
    RobertW Guest

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    Domo arigatou Gozaimasu!

    I don't know how great a weekend I will have. I have put on wrist weights and I am planning on wearing them around for a few days anyway. I am preparing for a tournament in December.

  13. #43
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    Huh huh. I just crawled through this thread and thought that I shouldn't have trained so much lately - it actually made me pass reading the E-Budo for a while (and I know, that is a serious violation ). Should have, especially since I checked the smaller forums still actively...


    I think that the issue about Kyan's Chinto got covered already, but I thought that I'll still sum it up (especially because Rob Alvelais pointed at me early in this thread. Kyan Chotoku's Chinto is a Tomari-chinto, which Kyan learned from Kosaku Matsumora. It is performed in a diagonal angle. There are no one foot stances in kata - not in a sense that they can be found from f.ex. Shotokan Gangaku.


    As an interesting sidenote, one friend of mine once showed me a stack of old videoclips, digitized from old films. They surprised me a bit.
    The clips covered several Shotokan kata, including Gangaku, performed in late 1940's by the Shotokan-representatives in Japan. Overall, the quality of technique (and ways of performing it) were rather typical to that time's Shotokan. That wasn't a surprise for me. However, the Gangaku was.

    Shortly put: The performer walked up, bowed towards the shomen and did his Gangaku in diagonal fashion. Otherwisely it was a Shotokan Gangaku. The way of performing, however, was diagonal.

    I only saw that clip for maybe three times, but the diagonal angle was burned to my memory - it certainly did surprise me a bit. After that, I've thought about that issue a several times. Maybe the change from diagonal to forth-back -Gangaku was made to "unify" the kata to the curriculum? Or for competition reasons. I can't know and I don't know the history on mainland Japan side well enough to speculate. However, I was surprised.

    I've tried to hunt these videoclips for myself. I'm pretty much convinced that my friend still has them. I'll have to make him to send them to me in some occasion - now this issue again begun to puzzle me a bit.
    Jussi Häkkinen
    Shorin-Ryu Seibukan Karate-Do
    Turku, Finland

  14. #44
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    Thanks to All that replied, This has been the most productive and informative post I have seen to date. I truly appreciate everyone's effort in responding.

    Thanks a zillion again !
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

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    " Kamae wa shoshinsha ni ato wa shizentai"

    " Postures are for the beginner,
    later they are natural positions."

    Funakoshi Gichin o Karate do niju jo.

    Twenty precepts of Karate by Funakoshi Gichin,

    # 17





    ken allgeier

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