An expansion of Kata topic

[hector gomez]

Ed you are right,I have met many BJJ guys with the wrong attitude but I have also met some real nice genuine people living their lives with the virtues and character that anyone would hope to one day acquire.

That's why I say.... somebody's good qualities in character is not realy a byproduct of just a physical activity or a forced discipline one really must search for that from within their soul.

Just like there is arrogant BJJ guys with the bad character,I personally know of many traditional karate guys training the "quote un quote"right traditional way that really leave a lot to be desired when it comes to having good ethical moral values.


Hector gomez

[hectokan]

Renzo Gracies book"Mastering jujitsu cont.....


Perhaps part of the problem in looking at this divide that has grown in the martial arts as a result of these two aproaches is the missunderstanding that surrounds the notion of a "safe" technique ."When people think of "safe" technique,they often think of a "harmless"technique.This reference is a clear missunderstanding.Many of the safe techniques of modern jujitsu and other combative arts are safe only as so far as both participants have a prior agreement to stop when the techniques are well applied.Without this ageement,the result would be crippling injuries to the joints,unconsciousness,or possibly death.The potential brutal joint locks and strangles of the grappling arts should never be thought of as harmless.

Consider also the strikes of the sporting striking arts.Thai boxing and Western boxing both have strict limits on what you may hit and how you may hit.In addition ,safety equipment in form of gloves,cups,and mouthpiesces are compulsory.These rules may appear to make them less potentially dangerous than traditional striking arts,which teach strikes to the eyes,groin,and knees in addition to a host of other techniques that could not be made part of a reasonable safe sport.The striking of modern jujitsu as used in MMA competition however,is much more like Western and Thai boxing than the classical styles of jujitsu and thus it would also seem to be open to the same criticism.


Yet there is a definite sense in which it seems obvious which of the two methods is the better aproach to martial arts training.To most people,it would seem clear that an art that taught really dangerous technique would be a far more lethal art;it would be one that in a real fight would destroy an art that was limited to a 'safe"technique
.After all,the pure art would contain all the safe techniques of the sporting arts,plus the really dangerous ones that combat sports lack.

The truth is,however,that the pure arts,so laden with deadly and frightening techniques suffer from a great dissavantage that has severely detracted from their effectiveness in MMA competitions,which is the closest evidence we have for the combat effectiveness of a fighting style.By making it impossible for students to train with their apparently deadly techniques in live situations,the traditional arts never exposed their students to the pressure and feel of applying technique in a real situation.It is one thing to know the theory of applying a technique on a cooperating partner;it is a completely different thing to apply it on someone who is doing everything they can to resist your technique and apply their own.

[Gene Williams]

Can we get this back to discussing kata instead of arguing about MMA? Gene

[Goju Man]

Originally posted by Gene Williams
Can we get this back to discussing kata instead of arguing about MMA? Gene

Gene, I agree with your philosophy of karate. I know we all have different reasons for training. I always refer to karate as combat first and foremost. This was the reason for its creation in Okinawa yes? It later became an art form which I love as such. They practised out of necessity and not so much for the art. Could you imagine not wanting to do the supplementary exercises because it was not done that way in China? Or someone calling Myagi a Mc dojo because he changed the forms? Hmmmmmm.

[Gene Williams]

Manny, I think we all got into karate because we wanted to learn how to fight, we loved the competition, the contact, etc. Then after doing it for years, it hit a different level and it became a way to relax mentally, stay in shape, and do something challenging, combat based, and beautiful (kata). It doesn't mean that is all we do, it is just that kata is the most meaningful part of it now. I used to fight a lot back in the sixties and seventies, both in the dojo and in tournaments, and in some places I should not have been. But, now, I just want to keep a sharp edge in case I am ever attacked in the street. I can do that through kata, makiwara, heavy bag and some partner work as well as running and biking ( the Colt DS II also gives me an edge for the really bad situations). I don't feel the need to spend my workout time fighting that much. I usually train alone, anyway, because my students often annoy me when I am training with them. It is hard to do my work out when I am seeing so much they need to work on. Gene

[Goju Man]

Gene, I agree with a lot of what you said. Kata can be a beautiful thing. It is great exercise and a stress reliever. (so is sex btw )

It is hard to do my work out when I am seeing so much they need to work on. Gene

I feel that way about running. I've gotten to where I lkike to run alone. When I used to work on kata, I also liked to do it alone. But all that said, imo I think that todays karate can still be improved upon, maybe not so much for the other side of it which I'm in agreement with you on, but for the combat side of it. We have a luxury that we sometimes take for granted, we don't have to fight on the street on a constant basis as they did. Maybe that's why we concentrate more on the art than the combat. That's why I like mma type training, I can fight very often and, just like when I critique my kata performance, I can see exactly where I'm lacking and where I need improvement.

[CEB]

Originally posted by Goju Man
...We have a luxury that we sometimes take for granted, we don't have to fight on the street on a constant basis as they did. ....

Did they?

[Goju Man]

Originally posted by CEB
Did they?

So you think they never fought? Then it was devised for purely spiritual reasons?

[hectokan]

As civilians,I Don't think they"okinawans" fought that often at all.If you compare the history of Siam(Thailand) to that of Okinawan history at about the same time period,1700 to late 1900s,you see that Siam(Thailand)was a country that was in constant turmoil similar to okinawa.The difference as I see it,is that the original style of Muaythai formely known as "Muayboran" already had a very brutal form of fighting art that stressed combat fighting in a brutal sport form from it's very inception.

Everyone kinda of knows the history of the Thai fighter's original fighting(or lack of)rules,hemp rope dipped in glue mixed with glass,coconuts as cup protectors.Those guys had a brutal sport(if you want to call it sport) fighting system in place a long time ago.

Their big problem was not having a large portion of US GI's station there and bringing back that beatiful fighting art to the states and making it popular,like what happened with karate &judo.Muaythai has never been considered something for the masses(like tae-bo).

I also think that as a society,we americans did not want anything to do with the brutality of what muaythai stood for.

[CEB]

Originally posted by Goju Man
So you think they never fought? Then it was devised for purely spiritual reasons?

I don't know. They don't seem like a very violent people to me. The thing that Graham Noble points out in the Yabu Kentsu article is that Yabu was such a standout due to the fact that he was Okinawian and Okinawians typically made for very poor soliders.

I always took them to be a real mellow easy going islander culture. But I don't know.

[Goju Man]

The thing that Graham Noble points out in the Yabu Kentsu article is that Yabu was such a standout due to the fact that he was Okinawian and Okinawians typically made for very poor soliders.

Yes, I read that somewhere. Wasn't that a motivation to introduce it in the public school system?

[CEB]

Yes, according to the article.

[Gene Williams]

Jesus, Troof! And to think I said all those ugly things about you early on You know, of course, that I agree with you 110% on this. I have never been in Okinawa for any length of time. My first teacher was Okinawan, but he lived in Osaka before moving here. He was tough as Hell. My impression has always been that the Okinawans were pretty tough...they may not have much of a military history, but they did do a lot of challenge fighting that I have read about in various sources. Peacefulness does not imply harmless...Gene

[hectokan]

Brother Troof,

Have you trained at a legitimate Muaythai camp?As far as I know the best Muaythai camps are in and around Bangkok not the phillipines.Although I am sure there might be some camps in the phillipines,I don't know of that many people(except for you)that have trained at a legitmiate Muaythai camp and have not be impressed with that striking art.Unless you really did not train at a legimtimate camp and are just making an assumption of the effectiveness of Muaythai.


I doubt that "PI" would have ever developed an empty hand system comparable to okinawa, since most of that country's past history were completely under a different set of circumstances"THERE WAS NO BANNING OF WEAPONS in the PHILLIPINES"so whenever those crazy pirates landed on those little islands,all hell would break loose and nobody was playing "Quensbuerry rules"they were slicing,cutting and hitting with all sorts of sharp weapons imaginable.

I bet kobudo is not as popular in PI as karate.karate might be popular now in more peaceful times.


The reason why people in most countries of the world do not train Muaythai is very simple,IT'S NOT FOR THE MASSES,something that you have mistakenly stated here often confusing it with tae-bo(kickbox-aerobics).

[RobertW]

Wholehearted agreement Troof.
Take a look at kids. It is in our nature to fight, but we stand off for ages when we are young and don't want to hit. Could it be the eternal struggle? Just wanting to get along?