Likes Likes:  15
Page 1 of 14 1 2 3 4 5 11 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 206

Thread: BJJ vs. JJJ

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Baghdad, Iraq
    Posts
    3,084
    Likes (received)
    0

    Post

    Words have meaning, based on not only its definition, but how the public uses them. Thus, I suspect that “jujutsu” has evolved today to the point that it is often associated with ground fighting skills from South America, and not as a traditional Japanese martial art. For years, people have been referring to “BJJ” (Brazilian Jujitsu) in an attempt to differentiate this art from its Japanese counterpart. I for one feel that the time is approaching that the term BJJ will not be needed, since it will be the “jujutsu” in the eyes of the public and martial artists. What will be needed instead is JJJ (Japanese jujutsu) or TJJ (traditional Jujutsu).

    Traditional Japanese jujutsu seems to have a slight “respect” problem, especially in terms of street effectiveness. Just last week I was chatting with a new friend who asked what martial arts I study. When I answered him with: “traditional Japanese jujutsu,” he quickly commented that he studied modern jujutsu and didn’t have much interest in the older, AND less effective arts of Japan. In his eyes, jujutsu is ground fighting that worked, and he didn’t see any use in studying the Japanese koryu forms of it.

    All this got me to thinking, and it reminded me how Karate has evolved into meaning “martial arts” in a general sense (do you find martial arts in your yellow pages under karate or martial arts?) and how tae kwon do is referred to “Korean karate.”

    So, am I a lone voice in the wilderness or do others see the same thing?

    How is it that JJJ is seen as being less than effective compared to its Brazilian offshoot?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    569
    Likes (received)
    16

    Post

    John, I agree totally, TJJ is becoming the poor cousin in the eyes of the public. I've even seen people quit training when they found out that TJJ was not the Gracie style they had heard of.

    Conversely though, I have had a BJJ practicioner who was training for UFC come to me for some training. He had a low opinion of TJJ but some mutual friends had said to him to give me a try, after all training was training. At the end of our session he had a number of 'tricks' that his BJJ instructors had not been able to show him in the ground fighting area. They tend to lack finesse and have a poor concept of balance, which is important anywhere.

    The main thing he said though was that BJJ totally ignored the standing up stuff. They taught get to the ground anyway possible then fight. He was amazed that when we were standing and I took him down to the ground there was little room for him to manoeuvre, I retained control all the way. In the end it was my lack of fitness (must work on that!) rather than his technique that allowed him to get anything on me.

    What most people don't understand is that UFC style fighting is not the same as real self defense. Whilst there is strong media representation BJJ, Shute Fighting and others have the public's interest. I believe that as long as we keep TJJ pure and don't change it for the public it will have a place.

    Comercialism has been the death of many a style, if you have good Jujutsu but few students, hey to me the problem is in the students not the Jujutsu.

    Regards
    Neil

    ------------------
    The one thing that must be learnt, but cannot be taught is understanding.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Warwick,RI
    Posts
    421
    Likes (received)
    0

    Post

    At a seminar two years ago, I had the chance to talk to a senior instructor of Aikido about BJJ. While he had respect for it's capability as a very effective art for single person combat, he also was quick to point out that it is not an ideal form for all circumstances, or as he put it..
    " I heard that the Marines were considering adopting the Gracie System. Now picture this.. You have a guy with body armour, web gear, night vision goggles- the whole works, and he's going to get down on the ground with someone and try to choke them into submission while meanwhile his( the adversary's) buddy comes up with a bayonet and skewers him?! This just doesn't make sense."
    I found this to be an interesting evaluation. My own experience with BJJ is that their practitioners are very capable at their preferred range, but I do not know how well they fare against unpleasant terrain, weapons, or multiple attackers. If anyone has knowlege of how they deal with these variables, I would be quite interested to hear more.

    ------------------
    Krzysztof M. Mathews
    " For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me"
    -Rudyard Kipling

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Sarasota, Florida, USA
    Posts
    733
    Likes (received)
    1

    Post

    Here's the well-kept secret, fellas.

    NON-SPORT BJJ IS JJJ!!!!!

    More to come....

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

  5. Likes MikeyPPD liked this post
  6. #5
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Colo Spgs, CO USA
    Posts
    377
    Likes (received)
    2

    Post

    Good observations John. I agree. Although I prefer the term classical jujutsu to traditional jujutsu. Japanese jujutsu also works fine for me.

    As for BJJ I spoke with a Gracie family member about combat with weapons, and he told me he also practiced Escrima. Later, he also opened his duffel bag and showed me his new "Glock".

    They insist that if you can't prevent one person from clinching and taking the fight to the ground you can't possibly realistically prevent more than one opponent from doing the same, it's a strong point. So they, don't really address multiple opponents in general. However, I was told that advanced students and Gracie family members do practice some multiple attacker drills. The one's he described to me sounded pretty intense.

    But, I would argue that their basic operating system is set up for one on one grappling. They'd have to change their basic strategy and thinking altogether for a multiple attacker scenario.

    Everything changes for multiple opponents and/or weapons.

    Just a few of my observations.

    Brently Keen


  7. #6
    ericDZR Guest

    Post

    as far as labels are concerned i think we should leave things as they are and let the public figure it out. when i decided to start training in jujitsu i was really stoked to find out that there were a number of different styles. i can also appricate the fact that the different styles tended to attract different personalities. another pleasant supprise was that fact that not many people outside the dojo seemed to know what DZR jujitsu is (dispite the fact it's supposed to be one of the most popular styles of [modern] jujitsu)

  8. #7
    MarkF Guest

    Post

    John,
    You are not alone. I find that it is the general feeling of most people when you say martial arts, it means karate, and that most think jujutsu is "dead." A while back a rather young neighbor and I were talking and the talk got around to MA. He asked if I ever had done that, and I answered "yes, judo." He said "yeah? Do a high spinning back kick!" BTW: I still manage to find martial arts under martial arts in the phone book. Another person said this when I mentioned judo: "Didn't they change the name to martial arts?" No, jujutsu hasn't, to my memory, at least, even been brought up by wannabes.

    But I have to comment on something Neil said. I don't know the numbers of arts going commercial and dying, but I hear every now and again how so and so died and "took the secrets with him." This is not a plug for commercialism, indeed, it can be a difficult boil to lance, but sometimes in the attempt to keep things pure, we sometimes lose sight of the thing and we allow it to disappear. I also wonder just how pure things really are when the very idea of classical or traditional must be lost to a great degree over the years. I do think, however, in this new age, it may be easier to do simply because it is much easier to pass along knowledge to others. What ever your opinion, the introduction of judo had at least this effect: it seemed to have saved at least two tjj or jjj from certain death. Today, with the popularization of judo, these two jjs have found a very stable audience. Keeping things pure is impossible. One may try, but things change, no matter how great our vigilence. And in the attempt not to change, we must change something in order to save it.



    ------------------
    Mark F. Feigenbaum

  9. #8
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Post

    Hello All,

    Well, I see some of the earlier replies stole my thunder. My two cents:

    Traditional Jujutsu, Nihon Jujutsu or Classical Jujutsu seem to already be the appellations the koryu-oriented folks are taking on, perhaps in response to the soaring popularity of "BJJ." In my humble opinion, being a student of both brands of grappling, the classical stuff is better in a self defense or tactical environment where weapons are a reality. I would argue that cross-training in the "BJJ" version helps to develop conditioning (I think Neil brought this up) and transitions against actively resisting opponents better than in those systems that don't do a lot of groundwork or drills other than kata.

    The general public is unaware that 1) BJJ is really just Judo focussing on groundwork 2) Judo comes from classical jujutsu, and many classical systems contain some of the very same techniques that are found in BJJ. Many BJJ practitioners are ignorant of this as well. Frankly, when you read EJ Harrison, the newspaper articles and research that Joe Svinth is bringing to light, and stuff about men like Yukio Tani, you can see the very strong link between classical jujutsu and modern combat sport grappling.

    I have practiced with guys trained in BJJ/Judo, Judo focussed on groundwork (with a group that is trying to train in the Kosen Judo spirit) and people that blend wrestling, jujutsu, sambo and other grappling methods. Many of these folks have a higher opinion of Judo grapplers than BJJ guys, but lament that Judo tends to over-emphasize the standing stuff.

    Also, I see an increasing trend to refer to the modern sport jujutsu as "submission wrestling" or "submission grappling." BJJ, while an excellent system teaching important skills, has its limitations even in the relatively restricted sport jujutsu and No Holds Barred arenas. Many fighters are moving beyond pure BJJ and looking to wrestling, sambo, shooto and other arts to fill out their skills. For example, I have heard BJJ teachers denigrate leg locks and other techniques, based on what I feel is nothing more than the fact that BJJ does not emphasize leg locking techniques. I have heard others criticize BJJ's heavy reliance on "the guard" and more "passive" fighting strategy. While BJJ is here to stay, I think that with time more people will accept that there is other "jujutsu" out there besides the Brazilian kind, that it was where BJJ came from, and that it is sometimes better, and they will gain more respect for these arts and adapt techniques from them.

    As an aside, I don't like the multiple opponents argument. I frankly don't think anyone can handle multiple motivated opponents with hands on technique. But at least in classical jujutsu you will find teachings on how to deal with more than one through tai sabaki or other tactical expedients. The modern stuff is sport. Sport that helps develop combatively useful attributes, but sport nonetheless.

    BJJ/Submission is also getting big in the law enforcement world. I have personally used techniques directly from submission training on the street in such an environment. I have also used "classical" techniques in the street environment. I can say that the submission techniques I have found useful on the street are generally those that also appear in the classical kata I have studied. Things that make you go HMMMM.

    Kit LeBlanc

  10. #9
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    249
    Likes (received)
    0

    Post

    Neil, your experience with the BJJ practioner confirms what I read on another forum. BJJ , like Judo, has eliminated the more dangerous techniques from classical jujitsu , the reasoning being that you can practice the less dangerous techniques all out. The more dangerous stand up techniques tend to be choreographed because you do not want to kill your partner.

    I think this the reason for the success of BJJ, it is not that their techniques are any better (in fact I understand that all of the BJJ techniques are contained in Kodokan judo) but that their method of training is all grappling match based.


    In my dojo we do spend about a quarter of our time on ground fighting and grappling and I find it the most physically taxing thing we do. A four minute grappling match can really take it out of you, never mind those 30-45 minute matches that Gracie was involved in at the UFC.

  11. #10
    seamus Guest

    Red face

    In the traditional jiujitsu taught in my dojo we train about 50/50 stand up and grappling.
    My sensei will bring in video tapes quite often showing all the different JJ systems, as well as Judo and other wrestling/submission arts. We train a great deal of law enforcment as well.

    One of the observations we've been making in the NHB/submission type matches is the fighters seem to be spending a lot more time on their feet. When all the UFC tyoes started you saw kick boxers being beaten and swearing to come back next year after they learned how to grappling. There was a movement toward the grappling side of things and an almost neglect of others. The recent videos we've seen came straight out of Japan and there are an almost even amount of fights won standing as on the ground. Shamrocks Lions Den (from the few fighters I've seen them produce) seem to be able to punch and kick just as well as move around on the mat. We seem to see a lot more of the "traditional" Jiujitsu teachings and techniques appearing more often.

    BJJ has the advantage only in the combination of a superior fighter (like Neil's fitness case) and concentration on a skill that one has the opportunity to use. Lets face it, they work the gaurd great...but how practical is the gaurd for an officer in full gear, when a suspct is in your gaurd its really easy for him to get @ any number of devices on your belt. And how much fun would grappling be in a parking lot littered w/ broken glass.

    Versitility is the key to having an edge. Though BJJ has the plus of being concentrated in one aspect of jiujitsu, there are times where its concentrations are impractical. Many of the traditional JJ arts are very versitile, especially if the insrtuctor is doing what he's supposed to in regaurds to what could happen outside the dojo.

    Thats where I think the difference lies.

    ------------------
    Seamus
    Shinto Yoshin Ryu
    "There is no one way to slavation" -musashi

  12. #11
    Aaron Fields Guest

    Wink

    I am not going to be able to add anything new, but..My particular branch of ju-jutsu can trace its roots to a "traditional" school, but is probally really a goshin-jutsu. We practice (and have always practiced) both ground and standing. The system comes from Japan but I live in Seattle and am not Japanese. So, with my tounge in my cheek my ju-justu is now SJJ (Seattle-ian ju-jutsu) and when I live in Mongolia, MJJ. Over the years I have also have practiced judo and sombo (sombo in Mongolia with their national team) and have found that the human body and the way it moves is finite. Ignoring subtle variations it is all really similar. Any sporting event is just that, a sport. I have had numerous Brazilian ju-jutsu guys come into the club swearing that their's was the only effective way. Several successful locks and throws later they were not as sure. Once ne-waza began they also were suprised. The conversation usually goes, "I didn't think Japanese ju-jutsu did ground work." I usually smile and ask "had they ever done Japanese ju-jutsu or Judo prior to this?" Some have stayed in the club because they like the more rounded approach, some go back to the BJJ club because they like the BJJ approach. It is all good, do what you enjoy. For me it is ju-jutsu and judo, focus varies the human body does not and history is to often changed for convenience.



    ------------------
    Regards,
    Aaron

  13. Likes MikeyPPD liked this post
  14. #12
    Mollberg Guest

    Lightbulb

    When did the brizilians start to speek japanese???jujitsu IS A JAPANESE WORD!!! maybe they should call it a brazillian word?!? but when it comes down to it my favorite "jujitsu" move is haveing my friend come over and stomp my emimes head in.In my opion its best to always stay on your feet. You never know whats on the ground, broken glass,nails,ants,DIRT,germs i think its just a good idea to stay on your feet in my experience when some one is seriously attacking you they will have friends with them.Besides,why do all the extra lundry?

  15. #13
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Warwick,RI
    Posts
    421
    Likes (received)
    0

    Post

    This has been quite an interesting discussion! From what I am told, BJJ is an offshoot of the groundwork that came from classical Judo. I was wondering if anyone could tell me where the groundwork of Judo originally came from. What do we know about those schools and their techniques, training methods and philosophies?

    ------------------
    Krzysztof M. Mathews
    " For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me"
    -Rudyard Kipling

  16. #14
    Guest

    Post

    Hi guys

    Great discussion. Being from a traditional Japanese Jujutsu system (Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu) that focuses much of it attention today on practical self defense, I would like to weigh in with some thoughts.

    A common misconception being made here is the assumption that most classical Nihon jujutsu systems were orginally empty hand disciplines which focused much of their attention on newaza. This is historically incorrect. Most classical jujutsu systems employed a variety of weapons in their training. During the Edo period many of these systems adjusted their focus and slowly discarded the weapon applications and waza. We in the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu however still train in the offensive tactics of weapon use which includes concealment in addition to taijutsu and weapons defense against weapons. The incorrect assumption that jujutsu was originally a weaponless art is a result of unintentional misinformation common around the time of the formation of Judo. Judo’s considerations for safety and it’s ensuing popularity due to it’s inclusion in the Olympic Games led Judo to become the defacto representative of historic Nihon Jujutsu in the minds of the public. Given the publics historical ignorance we should not be surprised that Brazilian Jujutsu has now taken Judo’s place in this regard.

    Another misconception is that Japanese Jujutsu systems historically employed only rudimentary striking techniques and was unsophisticated when compared to an art like karate. Classical Shindo Yoshin ryu is noted for it's atemi heavy curriculum including kyusho ate. In fact the late Takamura Yukiyoshi Sensei's ability to employ effective atemi had to be seen and felt to be fully appreciated. He often included devestating head butts as part of techniques intended as counters to virtually any attack. At one seminar I attended in 1989, Takamura Sensei knocked a rather persistent Okinawan “hard ki” stylist cold as a wedge with one of his frightening head butts. For all this gentlemans talk of hard "ki", in a more realistic situation without the opportunity to set up or prepare himself, the Okinawan “ki” stylist went down like a sack of bricks.

    While I personally respect and admire the Gracie family and Brazilian Jujutsu, comparison between the two is tricky because they succeed in different environments for different reasons. Remember that the psychological and technical fundamentals of conflict that exist in a street confrontation are completely different from that of a ring fight. It is in the street against a possible weapon ( while possibly secreting your own weapon ) that traditional or classical Japanese Jujutsu will show it strengths. But, only then if your dojo/sensei also addresses the challenge of training you to an intensity level that induces chemical stress which simulates a genuine self defense situation. This is an absolute must! You see, teaching methodology is where Brazilian Jujutsu and sport Judo surpass most traditional / Japanese Jujutsu systems taught today. Brazilian Jujutsu and Judo students train to fight and win in a genuine contest of skill, will and endurance while most traditional Japanese Jujutsu students train not to fight, but for fun. You take your training a lot more seriously when you KNOW for sure that conflict is inevitable and that it WILL HAPPEN. Alternately most classical students of all martial arts train for someday instead of today with the hope or gamble that “someday” will never really come to pass. Thats a dangerous gamble and not the attitude of a serious martial artist. Thats the attitude of someone playing at martial arts as if they were bowling or playing tennis. If you want your art to work on the street for you, you better train as if your life depends on it because it does. Japanese Jujutsu taught correctly should give the practitioner tools to effectively assess and meet surprise, attack or stalking. I know one jujutsu practitioner who while being stalked by a mugger in a park turned the tables on his stalker and started stalking the stalker. You won’t learn the techniques or mindset this gentleman employed by studying Brazilian Jujutsu because they are of no use in the ring. Be that as it may, I respect and enjoy Brazilian Jujutsu as a modern manifestation of Japanese Jujutsu’s ancient roots. Am I disappointed if the public begins to perceive all Jujutsu as essentially Brazilian Jujutsu. Nope! The persons I desire as students will seek me out because traditional Japanese Jujutsu is what they are looking for.......... and thats a good thing for any sensei.

    Toby Threadgill
    Soryushin Dojo
    Dallas, Texas

    “ Most dojo’s are glorified social clubs thriving in an environment of emotional stimulation heightened by a false or extremely limited perception of danger. When real danger shows itself in such a dojo the participants run for cover. In a real dojo the participants run towards the conflict! ” - Yukio Takamura



  17. Likes mkrueger liked this post
  18. #15
    efb8th Guest

    Post

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kolschey:
    This has been quite an interesting discussion! From what I am told, BJJ is an offshoot of the groundwork that came from classical Judo. I was wondering if anyone could tell me where the groundwork of Judo originally came from. What do we know about those schools and their techniques, training methods and philosophies?

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    In the 1986 rewrite of KODOKAN JUDO (Kodansha) on page 136, the following appears:"While throwing techniques of Kodokan Judo are based on those of the Kito School, striking techniques are, like the grappling techniques, based on those of the Tenshin Shinyo School."


    ------------------
    Ed Burgess

Page 1 of 14 1 2 3 4 5 11 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. BJJ - Is it really Jujutsu?
    By rupert in forum Jujutsu
    Replies: 86
    Last Post: 1st August 2015, 04:47
  2. Free sparring and tournaments in JJJ
    By 6 Pack in forum Jujutsu
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 24th July 2004, 11:16
  3. Goldberg (from wrestling) a JJJ Blackbelt
    By 6 Pack in forum Jujutsu
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 17th July 2004, 22:51
  4. JJJ vs. BJJ (a question, not a debate)
    By Todash in forum Jujutsu
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 22nd May 2004, 11:13
  5. Judo matwork and BJJ
    By cary in forum Judo
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 9th May 2003, 16:21

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •