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Thread: BJJ vs. JJJ

  1. #151
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    Ahh, and the thread goes downhill...

  2. #152
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    Wayne, Kit, Margaret, sorry I have not replied for a day or so; I am in the middle of house renovations, so being online is hit-and-miss.

    Just a short note: apparently epramberg has not seen Kano's book, still in print, and still the standard for the Kodokan Judo.

    Jeff Cook

  3. #153
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    Default Start from the beginning

    Quote Originally Posted by epramberg
    I can argue that Judo isn't Jujitsu. It doesn't look a thing like Jujitsu. It has none of the atemi, does mostly large hip throws, lost all of the weapons (sword, knife, etc.) It has nearly nothing to do with Jujitsu. It is (as you said) it's own art.

    As for BJJ. It still looks too much like Judo to be Jujitsu.
    It's clear you haven't read this entire thread. Start reading.
    (\__/)
    (='.'=)
    (")_(")

  4. #154
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    Wayne, you and I are not disagreeing on anything, really. I think my poor use of the English language is making me hard to understand.

    To recap: I strongly believe that koryu jujitsu is extremely valuable in today's world, as jujitsu principles are timeless and universal.

    I strongly believe that kata is ESSENTIAL practice for self-defense, combatives, DT.

    I am stongly suspicious that the pictures in the article DO NOT properly represent the art of the practitioner. That was my whole point - classical jujitsu "makes sense" in any context, when the principles are applied properly.

    I strongly feel that the pictures are NOT necessarily a true representation of the skill and/or knowledge of the gentleman in the picture. God knows I am "featured" in some pretty crappy and uncomplimentary pictures! The difference is this: my crappy pictures aren't published anywhere. If I was to help with an article in Black Belt Ragazine I would make damn sure that the pics are as solid as possible - not impervious to criticism, as that is impossible, though. But they would be representative of the art that I presented.

    I strongly feel that old farts like you and I, with plenty of randori and jiyugumite in our backgrounds AND PLENTY OF KATA, coupled with an above-average amount of practical application on bad guys over the years, makes us more than qualified to teach others now even if we don't participate in randori now (although as I practice BJJ currently, avoiding that is impossible - thus my frequent ingestion of Lortabs ).

    I don't think my training in various systems gives me a leg up or puts me at a disadvantage to anybody. Training is all good, even if from different schools. That whole "universal principle" thing I like to ramble endlessly about.

    Like I said, I am a simple guy. Principles of combat are pretty simple, if they make sense to a simpleton like me. Principles of combat are universal. Jujitsu of all styles has always impressed me as being quite sensible. Where we run into complexities is how we communicate those principles to others.

    Kit's excellent example of extrapolating from empty-hand to weapons use is an OUTSTANDING point. No matter how esoteric and/or outdated a particular jujitsu waza may appear, chances are there is more than one principle within that waza which has combative applications today. But if you have a crappy instructor who cannot see that, or cannot communicate that to a student, the waza appears to be an exercise in futility - a mere dance with no intrinsic combative value whatsoever.

    Jeff Cook

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    I have been following this thread sence I joined E-Budo I like your perspective Mr. Cook. I just have one question. Could you define (jiyugumite) please?
    Chris McLean
    Martial Arts student

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    Hey Chris, good to see you again. How have you been?

    Jiyugumite = jiyu kumite - free-sparring. It is a term normally associated with karate-do and karate-jutsu.

    Jeff Cook

  7. #157
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    Thanks alot
    I have been great still trying to teach teenagers to be good respectfull adults through the principles of martial arts.
    Hope your still keeping our country safe. Always enjoy your experiance.
    Chris McLean
    Martial Arts student

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    If classical jujitsu made sense in a BJJ context or even in a Judo context,then there would be no need for anyone to train in BJJ or judo at all.Just because classical jujustsu uses the principles of Ju in"THEORY"does not mean that their attention to detail in performing those techniques are the same.They might look very similar,they might have even originated from classical jujutsu. but the details is really what makes all the difference in the world,In both effectiveness and in application.


    I have yet to meet a classical jujutsu man show me or demonstrate a rear naked choke,armbar or strangle with more attention to significant detail than a judo man or a BJJ man.Unless ofcourse he also trains withiin a BJJ or judo context on the side.In other words his classical jujutsu is becoming more effective thanks to his BJJ or Judo training.You cannot have it both ways.This reminds me of my karate peers that want to make karate more effective,so they take up studying Muaythai,boxing and kickboxing but they still want to call it karate and give karate all the credit in the world for there new and improved technical application of techniques.

    Is there self defense type techniques,strikes or weapon attacks found in classical jujutsu that are not found in BJJ or judo?ofcourse there is but this does not change the natural laws of physics that have been developed or improved within the mano to mano randori format of Judo or BJJ.
    Last edited by hectokan; 23rd October 2006 at 17:55.
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

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    Thumbs up

    Well said, Hector.
    Cheers,

    Mike
    No-Kan-Do

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Cook

    But if you have a crappy instructor who cannot see that, or cannot communicate that to a student, the waza appears to be an exercise in futility - a mere dance with no intrinsic combative value whatsoever.

    Jeff Cook
    While I tend to agree with most of your post Jeff, I do believe there are better, more efficient ways to train to develop realistic combative skill.

    Hector, I also have some common ground with you, but I think the primary element you are referring to is a force on force, goal-competitive training paradigm, be it sportive or not. Many traditional arts, and modern "too deadly" combat arts suffer from the same affliction: lack of any meaningful training with it.


    As Wayne has pointed out, though, many if not most classical JJ used to do it. The FIRST jujutsu tradition (Takeuchi-ryu) had it, and was known for their skill at it. The idea that Kano invented randori has long ago been put to bed. Research has shown a strong competitive element in early jujutsu, and in a manner that was probably far rougher than what we see on Judo or BJJ mats today. It has also been noted that many classical warriors used to practice sumo as well - and that sumo used to be a lot closer to jujutsu than what we see today, with armlocks, etc. and variations in its practice (sumo done from the knees etc.) The notion that warriors with experience in combat eschewed competitive practice as somehow problematic in developing combative skill has I think also been seriously challenged. They may have seen competitive practice far differently than your average sport Judoka or BJJ man does today, however.

    Plus, they actually went out and fought on the battlefield. And when the battlefields were few and far between they got in fights, and duels, and challenged people at the drop of a hat who dared hang out a shingle as a martial arts teacher.

    Such experienced fighting men being the practical creatures they are, I highly doubt they quibbled much about the difference between the sumo they practiced with their fellows (combative conditioning and resistance work that lessened the chance of permanent injury) and the drills they more carefully went through involving more dangerous techniques, working with and against weapons, when they practiced combat training. The prime goal was combative efficiency, as Draeger informed us and we have been reminded of frequently since. With that in mind, the different aspects are pieces of a whole.

    The difference is when a piece of the puzzle changes: for starters, when the martial arts are no longer the province of martial men. There is little need to practice the more arduous, humbling aspects found in the competitive (again not necessarily sportive) training environment when there is little call to ever actually use those skills for most practitioners, other than perhaps the rare self defense encounter with an untrained person. In this light I would agree with Jeff, almost any art is valid. The principles will remain the same, but over time, as the combination of lack of need to use those skills under dynamic conditions combines with lack of interest in training them in a competitive manner deepens, the teachers themselves will manifest a lessening of "combative ardor" (LOL that sounds like a Draegerism...), and therefore a lessening of an understanding in what it is really like to try to pull some of this stuff off against an equally trained or knowedgable attacker, or one who is simply mad with rage. The principles, in essence, will no longer be tested under pressure.

    This is not the case with everyone - many classical jujutsuka also, wisely, practice judo. Echoes of the bushi of old practicing sumo alongside his jujutsu? There is (or should be) a recognition that you simply can't learn to grapple well without, well, grappling! Does not matter if you do so with weapons involved, the physical dynamic is the same.

    This is not something that judoka or BJJ men invented, it has long been understood by many martial artists, classical and modern. I don't believe that it is in any way "cheating," by not giving credit to Judo or BJJ or sumo, rather it is probably closer to the way their system actually used to be practiced!

    Of course I might be totally wrong. I have nowhere near enough experience with koryu jujutsu to speak intelligently about koryu specifically, though I sat for a few years at the feet of guys like Ellis Amdur, who really dug into these aspects of the history of jujutsu and from whence a lot of my thinking on this subject springs.

    But like Jeff, I do have a lot of experience actually using my training in a wide variety of situations, armed and unarmed, and of training others to do the same. I have seen the difference in people trained one way versus people trained the other, and over and over again these ideas are reinforced through the only lens that matters: performance. And though I do not and probably would not make it my primary discipline, I am still convinced enough that there are some very valid kernels in classical JJ that anyone looking for a well rounded combative skillset should not ignore.
    Last edited by Hissho; 23rd October 2006 at 19:53.

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    Hector, in your signature you say "It's all good!" That is essentially what I am saying, with a big exception: there are a LOT of crappy instructors on the market right now.

    There is merit to your post. Thus I am training my !!! off in BJJ currently. There are some superior training methodologies in BJJ for certain parts of the combat equation. However, the principles of combat STILL remain the same.

    On the other hand, the BJJ guys, INCLUDING the black belts, are always pumping me for information/ideas/techniques from classical jujitsu and judo. Why? Because BJJ is a specialty, and combat/SD/DT is general, as is (what I consider to be) classical jujitsu. But because the background principles are the same, it all works together quite well.

    Perhaps I should have said "If it is good, valid, appropriate and correct classical jujitsu, it will make sense in a BJJ and judo context." But if it is crap, as some of the pictures appear to be, it will not make sense in those contexts, thus my criticism of the pictures.

    Sounds like you have spoken with some pretty crappy classical jujitsu instructors. I hope you choked their sorry a$$es out.

    Jeff Cook

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho
    As Wayne has pointed out, though, many if not most classical JJ used to do it. The FIRST jujutsu tradition (Takeuchi-ryu) had it, and was known for their skill at it. The idea that Kano invented randori has long ago been put to bed. ... Plus, they actually went out and fought on the battlefield. And when the battlefields were few and far between they got in fights, and duels, and challenged people at the drop of a hat who dared hang out a shingle as a martial arts teacher.
    Just because they trained, doesn't necessarily mean they trained smart, though, does it?

    Judo and BJJ have a century of relatively scientific development behind them - a century which has seen huge leaps forwards in sports science, training methodology and (probably most importantly) open access to information. Add a competitive framework to push the art forward, and the freedom to specialise without worrying that all this wrestling is getting in the way of your spear/sword/riding/archery skills - and suddenly you can see how judo and BJJ just might have developed superior principles and techniques to classical JJ.

    It's not just about whether randori was practised alongside kata, but whether both randori and kata were practised intelligently in the best possible environment.

    Caveat: As I have no direct experience of koryu, I'm purely hypothesezizin' here...
    Cheers,

    Mike
    No-Kan-Do

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    Jeff,

    What you just said makes a lot of sense.I actually have a couple of guys in our judo class that have trained in BJJ, jujutsu and aikido,although their jujutsu would probably be considered more like "western jujutsu" and probably not recognized by any of the koryo ranks.Some of them like yourself are pretty good,ofcourse they also train in judo or BJJ.I have yet to see or train with good jujutsu practicioners "like yourself" that don't also train in Judo or BJJ like you have,inorder to constantly draw from this experience.

    I know very few people that train under a direct koryo lineage,so I really can't say.I tend to agree with Kit thou about older jujutsu being much more physical than the judo or the BJJ of today.It's like one viscious cycle that goes around and get's recycled and comes back under another name.

    I was at the US judo open this weekend here in Miami and I can't honestly say that olympic judo even ressembles the judo I practice.Although I always have to explain to people that judo is much more than....let's see who can get the other guy to stall inorder to get him some shido's,or let's see who can get away with deliverying less fake attacks,while you force him with the out of bounds strategy.

    This I realize is what turns people off about olympic type judo.The classical jujutsu types have a very good reason to get turned off by what they see, that's why I believe it's all good,because the truth lies somewhere inbetween.
    Hector Gomez
    "Todo es Bueno"

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    That's a good point, Mike. It applies across the spectrum of combative skills, from shooting to close quarters combat.

    I think the pool of potential training partners, and competitors, also drives a lot of progession and innovation. Its one thing to have a small dojo of ten or so people who never train outside the group or the system, don't ever compete, and don't do anything more than reading or Internet research on other training methodolgies.

    Its another to have a much larger pool of practitioners, as well as many coming in with a lot of experience in other systems and grappling methods (as in wrestlers in Judo and BJJ) and experience in other environments in which the principles and skillsets are adapted (Judo/BJJ competitions, sub grappling, MMA, etc.)

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    Kit --

    Have you seen this? It's Kenji Tomiki, writing on randori, budo, and so on, in "Bulletin for the Scientific Study of Kodokan Judo, 1969," Vol. III

    http://www.bstkd.com/MODBUDO1.htm

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