Hadn't seen that one. I prefer this one. Looks like common theme/one was based on the other?
http://www.tomiki.org/article_tomiki_jujutsu.html
Hadn't seen that one. I prefer this one. Looks like common theme/one was based on the other?
http://www.tomiki.org/article_tomiki_jujutsu.html
That second one certainly reads better, but I'm guessing that the first one is pretty literal. Either way, I think Tomiki's history and theories are directly germane to the thread.
Now, not directly related to the thread, but a book you might like is "Budo Perspectives," ed. by Alexander Bennett (2005). Contributors include William Bodiford, Karl Friday, Meik Skoss, Yasuhiro Yamashita, and the curator of the Kodokan's history section.
Joe
http://ejmas.com
Yes, Tomiki's writings really helped me form some of my present ideas. I'll have to check out the Budo Perspectives.
BTW, also germane to the thread - did you ever get the LE ground fighting piece I sent you?
Jeff wrote:
"..On the other hand, the BJJ guys, INCLUDING the black belts, are always pumping me for information/ideas/techniques from classical jujitsu and judo. Why? Because BJJ is a specialty, and combat/SD/DT is general, as is (what I consider to be) classical jujitsu. But because the background principles are the same, it all works together quite well."
...among other things, clarifying his points, which I do concur with. And I appreciate the honest search for answers, without getting stuck in "my style is better than your style" mentality.
I remember seeing some very good karate people who moved nearly like very tough aikido people, and one person commented, "all the arts are quite different, but when you look at the really good teachers, they have a similar smoothness and efficiency." Body dynamics, whether punching or kicking or grappling, tend to end up very similar, but it's finding that smoothness and efficiency through a particular methodology that makes us train. Of course, we have our own likings, so we tend to end up in a system that we feel is best for us.
And yes, there are bad examples found in any art. In my youth, the worst examples I encountered were young men with inflated sense of selves who think they have some skill because they have some kind of colored belt on their hips. It didn't matter the style; tae kwon do, aikido, judo, karate, kung fu. It wasn't the style that made them a-holes, it was their attitude. "Nobody can beat my (insert style) punch (kick, throw, etc.)." Insane. They were living in a fantasy world. I'm surprised this attitude is still alive and kicking, apparently. I trained at a judo club before the era of lawsuits and litigation. The two sensei, who had studied under Kawaishi, at the Kodokan, under Ueshiba Morihei and Mas Oyama, regularly used to dispose of such intruders in very quick order and in no subtle way.
There also still seems to be some lack of understanding among some people, it seems, about certain things regarding koryu jujutsu. One: it's not a monolithic art. There are different systems that are radically different in physical/technical applications and their approach to what they teach and their tactics. You can't dismiss all of them after seeing just one or two examples. Two: Most of what people in the west have seen and think is "jujutsu"...isn't. Well, not koryu jujutsu, that is. Danzan-ryu, American jujutsu, whatever variations thereof, may be all well and good for what they are, but from a technical standpoint, they're mostly iterations and variations of Kodokan judo.
Three: the argument of "if it was so good, why is judo better?" Well, if a Big Mac and a super-sized fries fills you up, why bother to have all the other restaurants in town? Who needs variety when you can eat a Happy Meal every single day. Fine. You can do it. not me.
Four: Why was judo so good? Judo had better PR. Nah, it actually did do very well. One of the reasons why is that anytime a judo person got whupped by a jujutsu person, Kano made buddies with the jujutsu style's sensei and learned their techniques. It's not as facetious as it sounds. I keep mentioning it, but Kano probably enlisted the aid of three Takeuchi-ryu shihan to develop his matwork techniques after the ryu knocked some Kodokan people around through the use of groundwork. The thing is, Kano could do it because he wasn't saying he was a competing jujutsu style, he was trying to create a new, pan-Japan, national system that would transform all of jujutsu for the 20th Century. That way, he could enlist the aid of willing jujutsu teachers across the spectrum.
I think Jeff made a very good point as to the different technical goals and nature of BJJ and modern grappling styles as compared to SD or classical koryu styles. If you have to make judgements, you have to establish what your goals are for the training involved. The two sets of systems are interrelated, but not necessarily similar in goals, so you learn differently and learn different things from both. If you have the time and means, cross training is a real eye-opener for anyone which would dispell any myths about invincibility based on style.
As an aside, I trained with some very good judo players in my earlier days, up to and including national AAU winners and US Olympic team members. I've been knocked out from chokes, and had an elbow and shoulder dislocated in judo. One sensei's osoto gari on me was so powerful, I almost had a concussion even falling on a mat that was a foot thick in padding. But the toughest, hardest to break, most effective chokes that were ever applied to me were from two Takeuchi-ryu people. That's not to say that every Takeuchi-ryu person is going to be terrific. As I said, you got good ones and bad ones in any system. But dismissing a style outright, as this thread originally attempted to discern, is kind of passe.
There's lots to be learned all around. Just not enough time in the day for it all.
Wayne Muromoto
Haven't heard something quite that true in a while.There's lots to be learned all around. Just not enough time in the day for it all.
Michael Kelly
Ironically neither a Niten Ichi practitioner or in fact a ninja.
I have a question for your opinions.
What is the best technique for a Jujutsuka to employ to dominate a Jiu-Jitsuka who has you in a closed guard?
Sean Osborn
There are no "best" techniques, but there are basic ones you should know.Originally Posted by S_Osborn
For example, you need have your base and learn some basic guard escapes.
Keep in mind a person holding you in their guard is not just going to sit there. He will be moving in an effort to apply a technique of his own.
Tony Urena
I have my own idea. I'm asking the opinions of others though.
I appoligize; To clarify, without passing the guard, how would a JJJ student defeat a BJJ student while in the closed guard.
Sean Osborn
Without having a weapon, I would suggest escaping the guard first. Any attempt to try to hit or control will be difficult, especially if he knows what he's doing.Originally Posted by S_Osborn
One has to remember that to a BJJ'er being on his back with someone in their guard is not an inferior position.
Tony Urena
Originally Posted by S_Osborn
I don't know about best, but a few probably effective techniques are:
1. Grab his testicles and squeeze until his guard relaxes
2. Pinch inner skin of thigh and twist really really hard
3. Strike inner head of quadriceps muscle L&R repeatedly
Karl Heuer
Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai
None of the above. Nos. 2 and 3, I know from experience. No. 1 - you are setting yourself up for a triangle choke.
Without passing the guard, your choices are limited to stacking him up and then repeatedly punching/elbowing to the head, or picking him up and slamming him.
Either of those might result in a k.o. or verbal submission, but really the desired effect is to get him to open his guard so that you can start to pass (this goes for the original 3 suggestions, too).
Cheers,
Mike
No-Kan-Do
Avoid the guard, maybe? Keep in mind that most Japanese jujutsu systems that I know of do NOT specialize in fighting on the ground, let alone in or from the guard.
So, if I were going to have to fight a Brazilian jiu-jitsu man in some kind of sport match... I would learn BJJ.
If this is a fight, though, where we're struggling for our lives or something of that sort and weapons come into play, I don't think rolling around on the ground is going to be where he wants to be.
Just my thoughts. Great thread, by the way.
Regards,
- Alex Dale
Exactly. Many view the BJJ sport aspect of it and don't realize or forgotten that there is a stand up proponent to it.Originally Posted by Alex Dale
It is a good thread, because as in many art unless one has been exposed to it, one tends to misunderstand or assume certain techniques. I know I did after 20 years of stand up then start training in BJJ.
Tony Urena
I hear guys in the UFC talk about learning take down defense to be able to defend against BJJ. I think a better way would be to go learn BJJ then having an all around understanding of the style a natural defense occurs.
If you want to learn to defend against a gun learn how to use one the level of respect for the gun changes and ideas of defending against one are more applicable. Just my humble opinion not that anyone asked or anything. LOL.
I started studying BJJ after years of trashing it coming from the JJ and Judo perspective I was always ready to point fingers and say hey that is judo or Japanese jujutsu but after being a student for a while now I have learned that it is unique and there is allot to be said for the contribution of the Brazilians and especially the Gracie family.
Chris McLean
Martial Arts student
Originally Posted by MikeWilliams
All three have worked for me, perhaps it is a matter of proper execution.
Karl Heuer