BJJ vs. JJJ

[hectokan]

I think a rule should exist that prohibits anyone from bad mouthing any art unless they first spend 6 months of training with a qualified instructor of that particular art.

[MikeWilliams]

I have my own idea. I'm asking the opinions of others though.
I appoligize; To clarify, without passing the guard, how would a JJJ student defeat a BJJ student while in the closed guard.

So what's the answer? Don't keep us in suspense!

---

Hector, I agree - but what would the internet do with all that extra free bandwidth?

[hectokan]

Hector, I agree - but what would the internet do with all that extra free bandwidth?

Oh,people will still trash talk anyways.I just think the 6 month mandatory rule would atleast give everyone better insight,from which to create more vivid and wild imaginary theories. lol

[TonyU]

I think a rule should exist that prohibits anyone from bad mouthing any art unless they first spend 6 months of training with a qualified instructor of that particular art.

Very good idea. Even then one should repect another person styles. I know for I don't like a specific style and I trained in it for a year, but hey I wasn't for me. I've actually refered people to that style. I didn't like it and felt it had no value to me, but doesn't someone else won't.

The only time it irks me when a person tries to make it something that it's not, but that's a whole 'nother story

[havamal]

Hi guys

Great discussion. Being from a traditional Japanese Jujutsu system (Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu) that focuses much of it attention today on practical self defense, I would like to weigh in with some thoughts.

A common misconception being made here is the assumption that most classical Nihon jujutsu systems were orginally empty hand disciplines which focused much of their attention on newaza. This is historically incorrect. Most classical jujutsu systems employed a variety of weapons in their training. During the Edo period many of these systems adjusted their focus and slowly discarded the weapon applications and waza. We in the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu however still train in the offensive tactics of weapon use which includes concealment in addition to taijutsu and weapons defense against weapons. The incorrect assumption that jujutsu was originally a weaponless art is a result of unintentional misinformation common around the time of the formation of Judo. Judo’s considerations for safety and it’s ensuing popularity due to it’s inclusion in the Olympic Games led Judo to become the defacto representative of historic Nihon Jujutsu in the minds of the public. Given the publics historical ignorance we should not be surprised that Brazilian Jujutsu has now taken Judo’s place in this regard.

Another misconception is that Japanese Jujutsu systems historically employed only rudimentary striking techniques and was unsophisticated when compared to an art like karate. Classical Shindo Yoshin ryu is noted for it's atemi heavy curriculum including kyusho ate. In fact the late Takamura Yukiyoshi Sensei's ability to employ effective atemi had to be seen and felt to be fully appreciated. He often included devestating head butts as part of techniques intended as counters to virtually any attack. At one seminar I attended in 1989, Takamura Sensei knocked a rather persistent Okinawan “hard ki” stylist cold as a wedge with one of his frightening head butts. For all this gentlemans talk of hard "ki", in a more realistic situation without the opportunity to set up or prepare himself, the Okinawan “ki” stylist went down like a sack of bricks.

While I personally respect and admire the Gracie family and Brazilian Jujutsu, comparison between the two is tricky because they succeed in different environments for different reasons. Remember that the psychological and technical fundamentals of conflict that exist in a street confrontation are completely different from that of a ring fight. It is in the street against a possible weapon ( while possibly secreting your own weapon ) that traditional or classical Japanese Jujutsu will show it strengths. But, only then if your dojo/sensei also addresses the challenge of training you to an intensity level that induces chemical stress which simulates a genuine self defense situation. This is an absolute must! You see, teaching methodology is where Brazilian Jujutsu and sport Judo surpass most traditional / Japanese Jujutsu systems taught today. Brazilian Jujutsu and Judo students train to fight and win in a genuine contest of skill, will and endurance while most traditional Japanese Jujutsu students train not to fight, but for fun. You take your training a lot more seriously when you KNOW for sure that conflict is inevitable and that it WILL HAPPEN. Alternately most classical students of all martial arts train for someday instead of today with the hope or gamble that “someday” will never really come to pass. Thats a dangerous gamble and not the attitude of a serious martial artist. Thats the attitude of someone playing at martial arts as if they were bowling or playing tennis. If you want your art to work on the street for you, you better train as if your life depends on it because it does. Japanese Jujutsu taught correctly should give the practitioner tools to effectively assess and meet surprise, attack or stalking. I know one jujutsu practitioner who while being stalked by a mugger in a park turned the tables on his stalker and started stalking the stalker. You won’t learn the techniques or mindset this gentleman employed by studying Brazilian Jujutsu because they are of no use in the ring. Be that as it may, I respect and enjoy Brazilian Jujutsu as a modern manifestation of Japanese Jujutsu’s ancient roots. Am I disappointed if the public begins to perceive all Jujutsu as essentially Brazilian Jujutsu. Nope! The persons I desire as students will seek me out because traditional Japanese Jujutsu is what they are looking for.......... and thats a good thing for any sensei.

Toby Threadgill
Soryushin Dojo
Dallas, Texas

“ Most dojo’s are glorified social clubs thriving in an environment of emotional stimulation heightened by a false or extremely limited perception of danger. When real danger shows itself in such a dojo the participants run for cover. In a real dojo the participants run towards the conflict! ” - Yukio Takamura

Hmm. Thank you. Osu.

[shinbushi]

AWesome post. I think that it sums up the differences very nicely

[Ree]

Hi all
I second Mr Threadgills comments on Traditional Nihon Jujutsu.
Toby we have headbutts in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu do you feel that Takamura Yukiyoshi Sensei's headbutt technique originates from the Koryu Kata or just his love for the technique?

[Hissho]

AWesome post. I think that it sums up the differences very nicely

AND the similarities - as in, neither one is really "street" or "combat" effective unless trained that way. Both have more or less equal, if separate, challenges in adapting to modern practicality depending on the level you hope to train to.

Lee, this thread is years old, and I don't think Toby is even a member here anymore, so not sure you'll get an answer. Some of his students are and might chime in.

[Ree]

Kit
Sorry had one of those weeks, abit slow

Thanks anyway.

[Hissho]

Not at all - be nice if some of these boards picked back up!!

[clayton]

Words have meaning, based on not only its definition, but how the public uses them. Thus, I suspect that “jujutsu” has evolved today to the point that it is often associated with ground fighting skills from South America, and not as a traditional Japanese martial art.

I thought i would recap this quote from 13years ago... How true it was.

[Kendoguy9]

Hi Clayton,

That is an interesting quote and a true one. It is something like generic trademarks (Q-tip, Klenex, etc.). To most people jujutsu (or whatever spelling) is a ground wrestling art. Of course to most people every martial art is "karate" also. The more I study koryu the more I see how far apart koryu and BJJ are from each other. Arts like judo, sumo, kendo, etc are just as far from koryu also, and that's okay. I think it is a good idea for people who seldom or never use thier jujutsu and koryu in "the real world" to engage in a combat sport of some sort to help understand dealing with an opponent who will resist and attempt to attack you in a more free environment. For those that use thier skills on a regular basis (police and military mostly) than it is maybe not as critical (but still a good idea).

Thanks for kicking the thread back up'

[Hissho]

As I move along the path I find I have an increasingly nuanced view of it....

I should note that I really don't care what gets called "jujutsu," I think the term has room for myriad expressions of the concepts/principles.

What gets hazy is what exactly is the desired end state of practice.

I think, entirely apart from say a sumo/combat sport base inculcated from early childhood in "feudal" times, some ryu were simply the equivalent of modern combatives. Some preserved or went on to preserve both sport (taryu jiai) and combat elements, along the lines that Judo later simply followed with its randori and kata practice.

The major difference seems to be that ultimately the koryu largely dispensed with the competitive aspects and training methodologies that went along with them - such as say contact dueling with bokuto.

I have found that training versus an antagonist that demonstrates an opposing will: either tactically or in personal combat (force on force variations) or both, is what truly hones practical combatives ability far beyond what rote technique practice can do. I have instructor status in two different modern defensive tactics/combatives systems, one LE centric, and one kind of across the board (civilian/LE/Military contexts), that strongly emphasize such drilling.

Likewise, I have more and more conversations with experienced practitioners and observers of koryu that note that the folks with experience in Judo, or wrestling, or full contact karate seem to have a much better grasp on combative movement and applications in their respective ryu.

I have also long been involved in martial arts, DT, and modern combatives training that does not do so, and the difference is palpable.

Now I do feel combat sport-cum-combatives can be rife with problems in the spheres of situational awareness, initiative, asymmetric confrontations, environmental dynamics, mindset, and for lack of a better catch all, "force science."

However, with oppositional training so critical to fine tune actual fighting skills, in the absence of a combatives-centric opposing will/force on force training paradigm, combat sport tends to be what those who embrace that paradigm default to.

Trying to work that problem in my own practice now....

[Kendoguy9]

Hey Kit,

Great post as always. It is the challenge of the instructor and practitioner to find the right recipe to get out of the training what you need. I think what makes it hard is also what the student brings to the table. It is really a custom mix for each person.

I've trained with kata only sort of guys and did some rolling with them. As soon as I *started* to get an armbar on them they tapped out. They had no idea they should fight out of it. I think they assumed once it is on they were done for. I was shocked when they tapped and thought they were hurt. On the other side of the coin; I rolled with a sports only bjj guy and he had me in his guard. I stood up and did a light dakiage several times. He had zero situational awareness what was going on because there is no dakiage in bjj or even sport judo. I wasn't going to slam him on the ground hard because I was a guest at the dojo. It was very interesting for me though. Each of these groups needed a little something different in their training. Both groups are also very talented at what they do, but they just need a little bit more from the other side. i have a feeling if those two groups cross trained they would be very skilled fighters.

Uh oh I'm late for class. Catch ya guys later.

Chris

[Hissho]

Adding to this....Sorry for the cross posting: I'm not a member at Aikiweb but this thread demonstrates both the commonly encountered "frog in a well" viewpoints on many levels, then superbly addressed by Kevin Leavitt his ongoing posts. Thought it fit in here...

Kevin jumps in about page 5:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12647