BJJ vs. JJJ

[DavidMasaki]

Originally posted by Tony Peters


I knew that they had them (leglocks) but that they were not practiced with any regularity until the late ninties. It was my impression that they only worked on the defences and not so much on the application until more of the BJJ guys started seeing the various leglocks in

Hmm.. Not sure about that. But I guess it depends on where you train and who you train with. Like Relson doesn't like to teach much leglocks because it's easy to get hurt. The amount of leglock practice from 5 years ago seems about the same to me now although I haven't trained much in the last year. Earlier you said "5 years ago they, BJJ, didn't have leglocks (just like Judo)." Even if they weren't practiced much, a key difference is that BJJ tournaments always allowed them where Judo tournaments do not. Although some BJJ may place restrictions like no heel hooks.

[Tony Peters]

David,
I had always thought that the leg work was illegal in competition, like Judo, I didn't realize that it was just a "don't practice because of injury possiblities" thing. Personally I can take or leave heelhooks. I've always found them difficult to lock and painfull even if you aren't in danger. They seem more like an abuse technique than a finishing move (at least in my limited experience). Kneebars on the other had I love...such an easy thing when you stand up in an open guard.

[Ben Reinhardt]

Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc


The current soke is named Inoue, if I remember correctly. Daniel Lee has had some contact with them as well, and provided me with some information on the school. There are apparently several other groups training, from what I gather all in the same area, and doing so as sort of study groups with varying levels of connection to the soke. Tanabe was I think the 4th headmaster, but I really don't know if it may be a completely separate line.

My acquaintance sent me a short video of a demo and yes, it looked like other koryu jujutsu. Weapons, wristlocks, self defense against strikes etc. He showed me one or two things but only on a quick break from a seminar in an unrelated art, so it was by no means comprehensive, and I don't believe that he considers himself to have a comprehensive knowledge of Fusen-ryu at this time. What he showed me was just like other koryu jujutsu as well. I hope to continue our contact so that I can see more and search out the roots of this elusive newaza element.

My initial impression is as I described above...Fusen-ryu is like other koryu jujutsu schools and probably taught more pinning and controls to gain the opportunity to deploy a blade, or in response to an armed attack, rather than Judo/BJJ style newaza.

From what I have gleaned in my own studies, as well as sitting at the feet of teachers such as mister Amdur, due to the prevalence of taryu jiai in Meiji, I think many schools adjusted their curriculum for that style of fighting, which I described a little above...throws only "counted" if the man couldn't continue, and otherwise matches were won by pins, locks, or strangles. Striking was generally not allowed in such training matches or matches while visiting other dojo, etc. Even formerly "battlefield" systems developed unarmed techniques for this kind of fighting. Really it reminds me of submission grappling the way it is practiced now or say BJJ matches, rather than Judo.

Now, for some conjecture...Fusen-ryu no doubt had their own specialists in this kind of match, which Tanabe probably was, and he probably figured that like today, not a lot of people are very adept at groundwork unless they focus their training on it. If the Judo/Fusen-ryu thing happened c. 1900, they had many years after the famed police matches to develop a style that the Kodokan was probably familiar with (like all koryu jujutsu would have) but not EXPERT at ...and there you have it. Tanabe is also in the famous 1906 picture of all the Jujutsu masters and Kano, and since he also appears in Yokoyama's book, his expertise was probably called on to help develop the newaza curriculum of the Kodokan. Question is was it Fusen-ryu, or was it simply something Tanabe developed for taryu jiai from his overall jujutsu knowledge?

This calls to mind other questions though. Kashiwazaki says in his Shimewaza book that sangaku jime, for example, was not a classical jujutsu technique, except for one variation. But I think I saw a picture of a Tatsumi-ryu exponent doing the technique. It might be on Koryu.com. Of course, I don't know if it WAS sangaku, or if it was, say the armbar variation of sangaku, or if it WAS Tatsumi-ryu but only AFTER someone added JUDO's sangaku to the curriculum, or that Tatsumi-ryu is the variation Kashiwazaki was thinking of!

Still digging....

Here's the link...looking at it again, it is definitely NOT sangaku...

http://koryu.com/photos/tsrboso93.html

Kit, thanks for sharing your information. Keep us posted on this, maybe on the Judo Forum ?

I've seen the pic from Koryu.com before. I though it looked like a variation of Juji Gatame (from Judo), and pointed it out to several folks as an example of the technique in koryu JJ. Your point regarding when it entered the syllabus is a good one. We may never know.

Ben Reinhardt

[WhiteDevil]

You guys are a bunch of cry babies!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Gracie's have never bad mouthed any "Traditional" Japanese Sensei. In all of their books, they give credit to the Japanese. You guys should take note.

The Gracie's will try to finish the fight before it hit the ground. Get your facts straight.

No style ( including JJJ ) can claim to beat multiple attackers. Do the math.

Name the last "Traditional" JJJ stylist that has recently put a butt whoopin' on any Gracie family member. Well??????????????????

BJJ has evolved from JJJ. That's a given. However, John L. Sullivan would have lost to Sugar Ray Leonard who in turn would lose to Mike Tyson.........evolving is a good thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whaaaaaaaa Whaaaaaaaa Whaaaaaaaaaaa

Somebody call the Whaaaaaaambulance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[vadrip]

Actually bjj is from judo, not actually jujutsu, even though judo is born out of jujutsu and a style of jujutsu. If anything it's really brazilian judo as opposed to jujutsu. Judo used randori as it's mainstay as opposed to kata like jujutsu did and developed new techniques in nage waza and newaza from randori and it's challenge matches with jujutsu . Maeda, the judoka sent to teach judo in Brazil, taught the Gracies prewar kodokan judo and wrestling; catch wrestling probably due to Maeda's prowrestling days, not jujutsu.

Doing it's prewar days judo had neck, leg & spine locks, unorthodox gripping and chokes, throws to the front, weapons and atemi training. The atemi and striking was more varied as well too. Sambo is another art born out of judo too, with other traditional wrestling styles thrown in for good measure. Traditional jujutsu emphasized standing joint locks, throws, kata, newaza and weapons and very little randori.

It is very unlikely that jujutsu had much groundwork due to the fact they trained for the battefield and hand to hand was the last resort since they used weapons and wore armor and did not want to be on the ground during a battle. Bjj focuses more on groundwork instead of throws like modern sport judo does, but it's groundwork is traceable to judo. Kosen judo is ground oriented judo that developed alot of the drag downs to guard to apply armbars that bjj is known for and such. Bjj is different, but not as different as compared to judo and jujutsu, but is closer to judo than people really realise.


One needs to find the rare out of print books which showcase the larger wealth of techniques judo developed in newaza; some these early books were also called jujutsu not judo even though were judo. Many of the techniques bjj claims to have been created were in judo long before bjj was created.

The unfamiliarity with judo is why most americans and europeans called judo jujustu instead of judo; jujutsu never really branched to other countries until well after judo did. After that time is was more so gendai(modern) jujutsu meaning it was influenced by judo, so it was full circle again. Famous judoka like the late Mikonosuke Kawaishi were known for keeping the original judo newaza intact. Talk to Mark Tripp, a man known researching early judo and someone who teaches it as well, who was in a issue of grappling magazine sometime ago.

[MarkF]

Orlando,
This guy isn't interested, he's a troll. He opens an old thread (for whatever reason) and makes himself look foolish.


Mark

[fifthchamber]

Hi all,
Comments like the post above also work well at depicting the writer as completely and utterly idiotic. If you cannot construct a coherent and well thought out and expressed argument for your point of view any point that you make looks foolish. YOU look foolish and also those you represent get dragged down by your lame and irrational moaning...Why bother.
Does anyone here other than Whitedevil think his arguments are the products of a well thought out line of reason? I doubt it....Twat.
Abayo

[Guts]

I just want to say I found Orlandos post really informative, I learned allot.

[RobRPM2222]

using the term "Japanese Jujitsu" covers so much territory.

I train a Gendai Japanese Jujitsu style. A number of people from the school compete in MMA competitions. Our groundwork comes from older-style judo and some other Japanese jujitsu. Wrestling, boxing, some aspects of karate and kobudo, some aspects of aikido and aikido weapons work, some koryu weapons work (I think, not sure on this one) and Muay Thai are all also incorporated. The teacher was teaching this kind of stuff pre-UFC as a synthesis of his training in the martial arts.

I don't want to sounds like I am talking shit on other arts or get some huge flamewar started, but people from the school have competed against people with a similar or greater amount of time in other arts including BJJ in no-gi submission tourneys and MMA matches, and won consistently enough. They have also lost too, but that is the nature of competition.

anyway, there are so many jujitsu styles that it's hard to generalize them all, even when seperating arts into koryu and gendai, etc.

[godstar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhiteDevil


Great post really,



The Gracie's have never bad mouthed any "Traditional" Japanese Sensei. In all of their books, they give credit to the Japanese. You guys should take note.


No its Just the kids with the video tapes who probably don't even train in a real style. I live in Chicago and there are really only about two dojo's that claim to do BJJ, and one is run by a Gracie. For some mysterous reason I've been in other cities where there is no one with authentic lineage to teach that stuff at all and ten or so mc dojo's are BJJ schools. For Yaks I called one of them in indianapolis and after pressing the instructor it turned out he only held rank in kenpo. So how is a kenpo BB going to teach BJJ better than a Judo school or koryu JJ school? Whats going to happen to someone who's watched the Gracies in action too many times and decides to fight a real JJ school that studied BJJ to help fill in newasa but failed to put it on the door or make bogus claims? And what if its a deadly style that decides to make a point that day?


The Gracie's will try to finish the fight before it hit the ground. Get your facts straight.


Our style mainly puts uke or attacker on the ground with one move often they are taken down in a submission or even standing submissions are used.


No style ( including JJJ ) can claim to beat multiple attackers. Do the math.


There are credible stories where people for whatever reason rose to the occaison and trampled multiple attackers. I've heard them mainly associated with aikido, ninpo, silat, to a lesser degree kenpo students. There was an aikido guy in chicago who ended up doing community service for his trouble.


Name the last "Traditional" JJJ stylist that has recently put a butt whoopin' on any Gracie family member. Well??????????????????


Right the Traditional JJJ stylist and the Gracie will both kick your ass. When was the last time you fought either one?


BJJ has evolved from JJJ. That's a given. However, John L. Sullivan would have lost to Sugar Ray Leonard who in turn would lose to Mike Tyson.........evolving is a good thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Real evolution takes place on a total level. Intelligent being such as ourselves aren't stronger than bears or faster than cockroaches.


Whaaaaaaaa Whaaaaaaaa Whaaaaaaaaaaa


[/COLOR=royalblue]
Somebody call the Whaaaaaaambulance!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [/COLOR]

[godstar]

Hi I'm sorry for not posting my name in the last post, I rarely post and forgot, don't usually do it on other servers.

I just wanted to add something.

I don't think it is necessary to discuss arts that people don't know much about.

I have come eventually to the unpopular opinion that real combat effectiveness is contained in the kata exersizes and what convinced me of this was looking at Don Draegers books. I won't discuss this right now.

But I have noticed that some older books of say karate no jutsu, show more combative application of karate than is studied today. Old Tae Kwan Do used to be full contact kick boxing, a serviceman was killed in korea by an Ax kick. Same can be said with Judo being more realistic in original form than now.

My essential point is why is there so much de-evolution in MA practice rather than a timeline of increasing effectiveness?

I think its in the attitude of the practioners, and the simple darwinian strength of arts that don't really demand much, Tae Kwan do is of course the superior art in numbers.

The Japanese have a saying, grow like a tree not like a weed. Why assume that massively overselling an art leads to combat effectiveness? Or that a Daito ryu school or Koryu Jujutsu school will benefit from attracting the inevitable weeds from winning global events?

Now for MMA/NHB/BJJ crowed who are so gung ho. You have already accepted unecessary rule augmentation, weight classes, gloves and padding. I think the arguments that you'd win on a more realistic playing field are lovely but wouldn't you be tougher if at the higher levels all safety nets were eventually removed.

Greg Howard

[edg176]

Greg,

If you'd asked me a year ago, I would have agreed with what you said in your post:

I have come eventually to the unpopular opinion that real combat effectiveness is contained in the kata exersizes and what convinced me of this was looking at Don Draegers books. I won't discuss this right now.

However, through testing my own personal training, I have discovered that concentrating on kata training (pre-arranged exercises) is not the answer to combat effectiveness. A tool, yes but not all.

I should point out that Draeger himself had EXTENSIVE experience in judo, kendo and karate, all arts with heavy sparring components. He was a training partner of Jon Bluming and coach to All Japan Judo champion Isao Inokuma. He knew a thing or two about freestyle fighting. Anyway, there are people who read this board who actually knew and trained with Mr. Draeger so I'll leave any other comments about that to them. If you do a search on E-budo or Usenet you will see that plenty of them have already weighed in on this subject.

That's my take on it. Your mileage may vary.

[fifthchamber]

Hi all.
I have expressed my beliefs here previously but thought it would fit in again nicely here so this is my own view on the issue here. Essentially there is no one perfect method of training for all people that works in creating a more 'effective' style...All we as practitioners can do is to try as many various methods as is possible and use those we believe to benefit us most in our training.
Randori/sparring can be very useful for some aspects of training. However Kata can be equally useful and to use one but never the other seems rather limited to me.
No master I can think of has ever really trained by only using one method...They have experimented and tried as many variations as possible in their creation of their skills..This has always been the case. No master in the past advocated ONLY training Kata as the perfect tool, this is why things like Shinai were invented...to allow a variation of training and adaptability for the students...It is quite ridiculous to try and argue that Kata only creates a perfect teacher...It cannot as it in itself a 'limitation' of that teacher and to excel the opposite needs to be embraced. Freedom of thought is essential in training and a user made blend is the best way to personally improve in any specifics you wish to specify, be that in Kata, in Randori, or in competition. You need a goal and the means to reach it. NOT a handicap and a limitation on what you can do..
Regarding why training seems to get less 'effective' as the years roll on I believe that one reason has to be that commercially Martial arts make less sense to 'prospective' students...MA are painful, possibly dangerous and require one to step out from the safety zone of comfort we all have...People generally are far more ready for sport and rules as it provides a 'safety net' for them (However small) and something they can aim for....No one really wants to kill others now and therefore the effectiveness of the form becomes adapted to suit modern needs of the students...Usually more sporting and certainly less dangerous.
IMHO...Long issue however..
Abayo

[godstar]

Originally posted by edg176
Greg,


I should point out that Draeger himself had EXTENSIVE experience in judo, kendo and karate, all arts with heavy sparring components. He was a training partner of Jon Bluming and coach to All Japan Judo champion Isao Inokuma. He knew a thing or two about freestyle fighting. Anyway, there are people who read this board who actually knew and trained with Mr. Draeger so I'll leave any other comments about that to them. If you do a search on E-budo or Usenet you will see that plenty of them have already weighed in on this subject.

But Draeger never retracted his opinion even though he participated in arts that had a heavy competition element to them did he?

Karate, kendo, and Judo are perfect examples, without kata the arts have absolutely zero techniques. Judo has weapons dissarm and karate has grab escapes. All in katas.

Greg Howard

[wmuromoto]

I don't consider myself at all having been that close to Draeger, because I only trained with him and did some things with him a couple of times before he passed away, but IMHO he was a complex, highly opinionated, very knowledgeable martial arts researcher. From what I could gather, in his later years he certainly soured on competitive budo, but it had as much to do with technical reasons as with the budo politics and personalities that infested budo even in (or especially in) Japan. He was sick and tired of the politics and shenanigans of large budo organizations.

In my opinion, I don't know how I could have separated Draeger's abilities as a practitioner between his koryu and modern budo training. He had a toughness and resilience, even when he was gravely ill, that I assumed came both from the physical demands of training at the Kodokan with the best players in the world, in addition to all his years of kata geiko. Throw in some real world experiences during his military service and a mind that never stopped looking for answers, and you had a very well-rounded budo person.

I never heard him personally speak ill of any outstanding practitioner in any martial art (save for a couple of Americans whose names will not go mentioned in this post or I'll start another flame war), although he often noted the technical limits of sport budo. He did make fun of the obvious silliness that infested modern martial arts a lot, though, and you have to admit, a lot of stuff in the public media was ridiculous then, when America was at the height of the Bruce Lee craze.

He stuck to the original concepts of judo, yet introduced scientific weight training and the concept of cross training in different martial arts; he was a stickler for believable, physically provable techniques, yet a couple stories he told me illustrated his respect for Chinese chi masters who he thought were legit. He wanted to preserve the koryu in as pure a form as possible, yet he opened much of it up to other Westerners like myself.

I don't think his actions were contradictory, but to make the example of his life relevent to this thread, I think he recognized the limits of sport budo, and yet he was a beneficiary and very good example of the positive effects sport budo could have on a practitioner. In retrospect, perhaps what he most railed against was how a lot of modern budo, due to politics and sports-craziness, had forgotten its original intent and seriousness, as well as martial applicability. This is only my opinion, but I think he still loved the art of judo, for example, but hated what it had become due to politics and personalities.

Wayne Muromoto


Wayne Muromoto