BJJ vs. JJJ

[Menker]

Just stumbled across this old thread doing some research, and I thought I'd share this recent article on the topic:

Submission Grappling vs. Classical Ju-jutsu: when cultures and concepts collide

Enjoy!

[Margaret Lo]

This has got to be one of the all time most educational threads. The last comparison site was very useful as I was considering BJJ. I decided to start training in a JJJ, and this thread helped confirm my reasoning. Thank you all. Plus, what happened to Joel? Did he take up BJJ? How did that go?

M

[Hissho]

Interesting to see your own views in print five years hence. I've seen most confirmed and re-confirmed with experience, and others revised and revisited.

I heard from Joel recently and he was doing fine - joined the Army, for which I have great respect.

[MikeWilliams]

Interesting to see your own views in print five years hence.

LOL, yes it is! Another forum that I frequent actually forbids bumping old threads, in case people once wrote things that they now regret.

Your posts still stand on their own merit, 'though.


Margaret, care to share how you finally made your training decision?

[mikeym]

Interesting to see your own views in print five years hence. I've seen most confirmed and re-confirmed with experience, and others revised and revisited.

Mr. Leblanc,

Care to share what you changed your mind about? Your earlier posts were very interesting.

- Mike

[Hissho]

Mikeym-

Please call me Kit.

Not really that my mind was changed, more that I see different practices as different expressions of the same root principles and strategies. They mold to alternative purposes - whether the ultimate aim is self protection, police application, holistic discipline, or sport. BJJ is great for some things, not others. Judo same. Classical jujutsu, same. You gotta find what fits what the best.

What has been confirmed is that no matter what the flavor of jujutsu, if performance is the measure, it needs to be practiced at least half the time in an antagonistic, uncooperative, resistive, or as some say "alive" manner. Call it randori, sparring, resistive drilling, what have you.

I also try not to be so blunt, these days. I'm not always successful.

[Hissho]

LOL, yes it is! Another forum that I frequent actually forbids bumping old threads, in case people once wrote things that they now regret.

Your posts still stand on their own merit, 'though.

LOL, more like I realize how broken the record is....

[Margaret Lo]

LOL, yes it is! Another forum that I frequent actually forbids bumping old threads, in case people once wrote things that they now regret.

Your posts still stand on their own merit, 'though.


Margaret, care to share how you finally made your training decision?

Hi Mike,
My decision was based on my conclusion that JJJ is a better fit than BJJ for understanding shotokan karate kata applications. Kata clearly has defenses against weapons, limb traps, unbalancing techniques as well as pure strikes. But JKA standard training consists largely of strikes, no ukemi, little joint management.

I wanted to start with understanding the transition from striking/trappingunbalancing/ground. BJJ seems to rule the ground but despite some mention here of its unbalancing aspects, that doesn't seem to be its focus. BJJ also seems not to presume weapons much?

I found locally, JJJ and decided that its techniques, including weapons, may fit with kata applications much more smoothly. Once I get a better understanding, BJJ may be next since randori is a must... but then I might be 70!!

M

[MikeWilliams]

Margaret, that makes sense to me.

I think the progression of shotokan > JJJ > BJJ would be a very logical one, neatly filling any gaps along the way.

[MMA123]

Hey everyone, this is my first post and this is a very good question.

First of all I've done shotokon karate for about two years now and there was an instructor I knew who is about 40 and used to do ring fighting for a number of years and tought me stand up and ground work. And now in university I'm doing Taekwondo and Shorinji Kan Jiu Jitsu. Over my relative short experience of martial arts in comparison to the people here, I've come to the conclusion that one martial art is not enough. While each art has its aspects that are good, however I do agree with whomever said that mulitple determined attackers would be hard to stop. Japanese Jiu Jitsu has great take downs, from **my experience** does not have great ground defense. While on the other hand BJJ works on take downs, the chokes and armbars are really not all that effective for the street if there is more then 1 person. However some people do not realize that you can use BJJ on the street. You can use it to get out of mount if some one sits on you and beats you for example. However you don't want the fight to go the ground if you can help it ifthere is multiple attackers, 1 guy go ahead, expecially when there's more than 1 attacker. So the only conlusion that makes sense to to have a great stand up offense and even better defense. Kicks are effective, expecially the front/push kick, roundhouse(rear leg) and the sidekick (to the knees). The snap side kick is a good one to the knees, stepping side kick to the knees to the chest and the spinng side kick. I do not recommend the side kicks (expecially the spinning) unless you can do it with increadable speed and timing, it is a really good kick. Fighting is a distance game which has 3 areas. 1 is the kicking distance, 2 is the punching and 3 and the grappling. So you have to readily adapt to any given distance. Fights on the street if you notice don't start far away, its usually always punching and grappling range because usually there is some sort of verbal confrontation that starts it. With multiple attackers you need to have quick hands, feet and most importantly a quick mind. You need to be strong, punch them break their nose, throw him to the ground, stomp him, move on the next guy, rinse, repeat lol.

Basicly what I am trying to say is that take downs, chokes and locks aren't enough on the street. What you need is mixed martial arts so you can deal with different situations. I recommend Muay Thai if available, if not then kick boxing, boxing and any type of take downs and ground work. MMA is the way to go because it will make you well rounded in a fight and if chokes and locks dont work you always have a back up.

[Margaret Lo]

Well since I discovered this thread a year ago, I've really really enjoyed traditional JJ with Dr. Fabian in NJ. We train outdoors year round and that has helped me tremendously. I've gotten 3 others to join me and we're having a blast whacking each other with real mankillers (6 ft bo). I've also developed a weapons addiction as we move onto chobo, and I'm lusting after swords http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/main.html

Aside from getting my pale, wan, paper pushing self out the door, traditional JJ - OUTDOORS - helped me understand better some aspects of the JKA curriculum like: why oizukis exist, how "traditional" Japanese karate is a mishmash of old and new. Certain insights for the office worker:

Terrain is critical: sport karate kumite footwork doesn't exit outdoors. Once outside, you need to step in and grab or punch your opponent. Grass is slippery, low stances help you balance.

What you are wearing: Your weapons have significant size and weight and you have to be aware of where they sit when you move.

You guys in law enforcement already know this but it didn't sink in until I was outdoors in the rain, landing on my head-ouch.

All this helps me explain JKA style training to students who come in from sport karate background. I just summarize it with this: yes we're wired for the medievel Japanese battlefield and not the boxing ring, deal with it! In the long run having both modern and traditional training really enriches your life.

M

[epramberg]

How is it that JJJ is seen as being less than effective compared to its Brazilian offshoot?

People like what they see on TV. What they saw on TV was the Gracies (who are outstanding martial artists as individuals) cleaning up. The emphasis on ground fighting is deminishing, though, so things are starting to balance out again. Fighters are deciding to stay standing once again.

On top of that, most people have never seen classical Jujitsu. It is easy to dog the thing that you have never seen.

At this point, I am starting to wonder if Brazilian Jujitsu really is Jujitsu at all. It just looks waaaaay too much like Judo.

[chrismoses]

At this point, I am starting to wonder if Brazilian Jujitsu really is Jujitsu at all. It just looks waaaaay too much like Judo.

Well (as you probably know) that's because it grew out of Kosen Judo, rather than an older jujutsu ryuha. Jujitsu just sounded better I guess.

[epramberg]

Well (as you probably know) that's because it grew out of Kosen Judo, rather than an older jujutsu ryuha. Jujitsu just sounded better I guess.

That would explain it. Not that I don't see the Brazilian point. They have re-martialized it a little (not enough to change the name to "Jujitsu", but still...). But, I kind of think that they are re-sporting it a bit. It is funny how some Budo evolve.

[MikeWilliams]

If I might interject:

BJJ did not grow out of Kosen, but rather mainstream Kodokan Judo. Kosen is a separate, parrallel development - and is really a ruleset, rather than a distinct style.

At the time BJJ was founded (and probably right until judo joined the Olympics), the terms "Judo" and "Jiu-jitsu" were used fairly interchangeably in the west. No stylistic or lineage differences should be inferred when talking about the origins of BJJ. Maeda was Kodokan hrough and through when he went to Brazil.

Of course, BJJ has since had 80 years of independent development, plenty long enough to qualify as a style in its own right. It's definitely not "just judo" ( ) anymore.

I don't see how anyone can argue that judo isn't jujutsu, either.