BJJ vs. JJJ

[hectokan]

Mike,

I realize that Maeda was kodokan judo through and through but what about his world travel fight experiences(before landing in brazil) with wrestlers,boxers,and strongmen?


It must have influenced what he taught and how he taught the Gracies?This I believe is the difference between kodokan judo and BJJ.While kosen judo developed it's highest levels under a special randori curriculim set up for kodokan mat experts.


All in all,it all it starts looking the same if the rules are somewhat similar.As Mat hughes proved with his fight with Royce Gracie.

[epramberg]

Just stumbled across this old thread doing some research, and I thought I'd share this recent article on the topic:

Submission Grappling vs. Classical Ju-jutsu: when cultures and concepts collide

Enjoy!

I hate to ask, but are you sure that that is classical Jujitsu?

[Alex Dale]

From the very bottom of the page:

"Alexander Kask is the head instructor at the Shofukan dojo and is the only teacher of Takenouchi-ryu in Canada. He is author of three publications on the Japanese language and is an attorney based in Vancouver, British Columbia."


Mr. Kitano, is he associated with you guys?



If he is, then yes, I'm guessing that is classical jujutsu.


Regards,

[allan]

Hi Eric,

It is my understanding that the point of the article was to discuss principles, not to show 'perfect' kata-like technique. The techniques in the photos for that article had to be modified in order to work on a half-naked opponent in a decidedly non-"classical" context. For example, the kata from which the leg-lock was taken begins with grasping the opponent's sleeve and collar. This particular opponent wears nothing above his waist. What to do? Follow principles but change or adapt the technique.

For more, if you search the archives this article has been discussed several times.


Hi Alex,
The Shofukan dojo is associated with the Bichu-den line of Takeuchi-ryu. Mr.Kask also studied Tenjin Shin'yo ryu with Kubota sensei.

Regards,
Al

[fifthchamber]

Hi Alex,
Yes. Mr. Kask is a student of the Chofukan as was stated by Al.
(Oh, I don't use the name Kitano anymore due to me and my wifes divorce...Ben is always a safe option Sir!).
Yours.

[Alex Dale]

Thank you, gentlemen, for the information.


Ben, my apologies. I don't know why I used that name. Guess I remember reading it some time ago and it stuck.



Best regards,

[MikeWilliams]

I realize that Maeda was kodokan judo through and through but what about his world travel fight experiences(before landing in brazil) with wrestlers,boxers,and strongmen?

It must have influenced what he taught and how he taught the Gracies?

Oh, definitely. Although from the very beginning, the history of Judo is rife with challenge matches against all comers. Maeda was not unique in that.

Given the relatively short time that Carlos Gracie trained with Maeda, there must have been an awful lot of independent development by Carlos and Helio. BJJ is not judo (despite what some internet judoka would have you believe). But it might have been, back when it first started.

And of course, Matt Hughes beating Royce was in reality a victory for "Gracie Zhoo Zheetsu".

[Hissho]

This thread is a blast from the past. I found this old post of mine, and I thought it would be interesting to walk this path again.

Traditional Jujutsu, Nihon Jujutsu or Classical Jujutsu seem to already be the appellations the koryu-oriented folks are taking on, perhaps in response to the soaring popularity of "BJJ." In my humble opinion, being a student of both brands of grappling, the classical stuff is better in a self defense or tactical environment where weapons are a reality.

Yes and no. Depends how you practice it. If all you do is kata you are underprepared for a close confrontation involving clinch/grappling, armed or not.

I continue to note that certain things I learned, and have been exposed to in training with more traditional jujutsuka, tend to naturally come out in a clinch when, say, you are retaining a weapon or trying to keep another from getting to a weapon, whether you train judo, aikido, BJJ or classical JJ.

I would argue that cross-training in the "BJJ" version helps to develop conditioning (I think Neil brought this up) and transitions against actively resisting opponents better than in those systems that don't do a lot of groundwork or drills other than kata.

Yup. Makes you adapt to circumstances and flow much better as well, which is pretty much the definition of the ju principle.

The general public is unaware that 1) BJJ is really just Judo focussing on groundwork 2) Judo comes from classical jujutsu, and many classical systems contain some of the very same techniques that are found in BJJ. Many BJJ practitioners are ignorant of this as well. Frankly, when you read EJ Harrison, the newspaper articles and research that Joe Svinth is bringing to light, and stuff about men like Yukio Tani, you can see the very strong link between classical jujutsu and modern combat sport grappling.

Yes and no. I agree with Mike that BJJ really has evolved in a different direction than Judo has. With a true expert its much softer and more fluid than Judo's groundwork, which feels more like wrestling to me. I have encountered more wrestlers in judogi than on the BJJ mat, and IME the wrestlers have a harder time adapting to "jits" than they do Judo.

.... see an increasing trend to refer to the modern sport jujutsu as "submission wrestling" or "submission grappling." BJJ, while an excellent system teaching important skills, has its limitations even in the relatively restricted sport jujutsu and No Holds Barred arenas. Many fighters are moving beyond pure BJJ and looking to wrestling, sambo, shooto and other arts to fill out their skills. For example, I have heard BJJ teachers denigrate leg locks and other techniques, based on what I feel is nothing more than the fact that BJJ does not emphasize leg locking techniques. I have heard others criticize BJJ's heavy reliance on "the guard" and more "passive" fighting strategy. While BJJ is here to stay, I think that with time more people will accept that there is other "jujutsu" out there besides the Brazilian kind, that it was where BJJ came from, and that it is sometimes better, and they will gain more respect for these arts and adapt techniques from them.

Yes. There is also an increasing recognition that purely sportive BJJ is hurting the art. Especially from the old schoolers.

As well, every self defense technique I have learned from a BJJ man has been closer to Judo or classical kata than it has to sport BJJ application.

As an aside, I don't like the multiple opponents argument. I frankly don't think anyone can handle multiple motivated opponents with hands on technique. But at least in classical jujutsu you will find teachings on how to deal with more than one through tai sabaki or other tactical expedients. The modern stuff is sport. Sport that helps develop combatively useful attributes, but sport nonetheless.

I would much rather be trained in realistic clinching a la judo and wrestling and a strong, mobile striking method in dealing with multiples. The key difference is that you must train to disengage rather than tie up. The strength in a clinch based art is that you actually clinch, and learn to escape real clinches. UFC 64's Franklin-Silva fight shows the power of a clinch (in that case Thai) when someone, in that case a world class kickboxer, can't escape it. Again, if all you've trained is kata or aikido based "multiple opponent" work you are in for a hurtin'. On the flip side, there are some very interesting strategies and body manipulations that may come into play that I've seen work that are definitely more classical JJ based. I have been training some modern, armed, resistive clinching work with a guy with a very strong classical background - and I would characterize what comes out as somewhere in between judo and classical grappling, and on the ground BJJ.

BJJ ... is also getting big in the law enforcement world. I have personally used techniques directly from submission training on the street in such an environment. I have also used "classical" techniques in the street environment. I can say that the submission techniques I have found useful on the street are generally those that also appear in the classical kata I have studied. Things that make you go HMMMM.

Kit LeBlanc

I still hold this view and have had it reinforced time and again. Real world requires adaptation of ANY martial art. I still wince when I see members of any flavor of jujutsu: traditional/classical, aiki-whatsit, Judo, BJJ claiming that they "teach law enforcement and military" without them having an equal or greater level of experience in the real world realm they claim to teach. You see some downright silly, and some downright dangerous (to the user!) jujutsu-based or jujutsu-like stuff being claimed as effective defensive tactics/combatives, including from people who are very well respected names in the martial arts in question. Some of these people have no realistic frame of reference and are not qualified to teach LE or military based on their martial arts experience alone. It takes much more than that.

Nice trip down memory lane.

[hectokan]

Oh, definitely. Although from the very beginning, the history of Judo is rife with challenge matches against all comers. Maeda was not unique in that.

Given the relatively short time that Carlos Gracie trained with Maeda, there must have been an awful lot of independent development by Carlos and Helio. BJJ is not judo (despite what some internet judoka would have you believe). But it might have been, back when it first started.

And of course, Matt Hughes beating Royce was in reality a victory for "Gracie Zhoo Zheetsu".

Mike,

My view or Opinion(because I don't have concrete evidence to support this)is that Carlos and Helio learned more about Japanese kodokan judo after the Maeda era ended from other Japanese judo practicioners and their students that were living in brazil at that time.Their time spent training with Maeda was not that long to fully develop a complete understanding of judo or jiujitsu.

This is the time and place were they developed their dislike or differences of opinions about kodokan judo.Aside from the usual challenge matches that they must have had,alot of friendly interchange of training sessions and workouts with practicioners that were training in or teaching kodokan judo must have taken place.Their only source of feedback or exchange of techniques came from the kodokan judo influences on the island,not any other jujutsu style.

PS:Kit and Mike you guys bring up great points as always

[MikeWilliams]

My view or Opinion(because I don't have concrete evidence to support this)is that Carlos and Helio learned more about Japanese kodokan judo after the Maeda era ended from other Japanese judo practicioners and their students that were living in brazil at that time.Their time spent training with Maeda was not that long to fully develop a complete understanding of judo or jiujitsu.

That sounds pretty darn plausible to me. Of course, you try getting anybody from the Helio lineage to admit to it!

[hectokan]

Their only source of feedback or exchange of techniques came from the kodokan judo influences on the island,not any other jujutsu style.

Laughing real hard at myself for calling brazil a island. lololol

[Todd Schweinhart]

I study both Koryu Jujutsu and GJJ and find that both have some great points toward practical application.

Here is a small portion of an older Japanese article on this issue of it being Judo or Jujutsu. I thought it would be of interest to you guys. I have the entire article but have only posted a section of it below for brevity. If you are interested in the entire article please email me at dojocho@yoshindojo.com. Thanks!

Todd Schweinhart
WWW.YOSHINDOJO.COM

Nishi: That has become the base of Gracie jiu-jitsu of the day, hasn't it? Was a style Mr. Carlos learned from Maeda Kousei centering on "kata"?
Helio: There weren't so many techniques. Most techniques were something mainly based on power. But Konde Koma was always fighting in real fights, so a lot of tricks to win in a real fight were incorporated in his teaching.
Nishi: Striking was also included, wasn't it?
Helio: No, it wasn't included.
*************
Maeda Kousei known by the name of Konde Koma was a judo-ka who got out of Japan to spread Kodokan Judo to the world in Meiji period, and performed an open fight with a different style in each country. (However, Kodokan removed his name from the register in the later years.) But why did he call it jiu-jitsu, not judo in Brazil? Nishi has secretly thought that jiu-jitsu introduced to Brazil might be something like a variant form of judo.
**************************
Nishi: Did Mr. Maeda call it jiu-jitsu, not judo from the beginning?
Helio: I heard that Konde Koma called it jiu-jitsu. We didn't even know the word of judo itself until it came into Brazil. At that time (the time when jiu-jitsu was brought by Konde Koma), there were many Japanese immigrants and local people had a friendly relationship with them. I heard that they often helped Japanese people in many ways. So I think he taught us their traditional jiu-jitsu in return for it.
Nishi: When judo came into Brazil, didn't you think it was similar to jiu-jitsu?
Rorion: I have a strong impression about judo that judo is a sport where the objective is to throw the opponent to the ground using power. But I think maybe the original art is jiu-jitsu. When Japan lost in the World War II and America was occupying Japan, they taught the Americans judo, but not jiu-jitsu. In that sense, we were lucky to have been able to come in contact directly with jiu-jitsu first, rather than judo.
Helio: (nodding to what Rorion said) They didn't teach the Americans the mind of the samurai.
Nishi: (being confused with a small voice) It doesn't seem that judo itself was completely introduced to you........... I wonder if Maeda Kousei introduced something he made up and called jiu-jitsu, or if it had originality as a result of the improvements made by Mr. Helio. It draws my interest very much.

[MikeWilliams]

See what I mean about using Helio or Rorion as sources?

Cool article though, thanks for sharing. I'd love to see the rest if you get chance to post it up.

[Jeff Cook]

I looked at the link comparing classical and modern, and I am skeptical.

First, in all fairness, I only looked at the picture sets - I did not read the text. What I see in the "classical" pictures of the arm lock and leg lock is this: poor posture, poor base, and a poor, ineffective (or less than optimally effective) finish.

I practice classical and Brazilian JJ, as well as judo. They emphasize proper posture, position, and finish - all infused with a high degree of efficiency. They can be excellent for real combatives, self-defense, and LE defensive tactics for aforementioned reasons. Jujutsu was a combat art. I certainly don't get that "feel" from those two sets of pictures. The rear naked strangle was a pretty good set though.

Jeff Cook

[Hissho]

Jeff-

I think that the amount of "live" drills and randori, correctly taught and practiced in conjunction with technical instruction, has a big effect on posture, position, and finish.

What classical ryu do you practice? And can you dilate on the interesection of your practice of JJJ, Judo, and BJJ and how it relates to practical application in the combatives, self defense, and DT you mention. I'd like to hear your thoughts further.