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Thread: Cutting a machine gun barrel

  1. #31
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    Originally posted by Nathan Scott
    Also, there has been much written about folding swords and what it does, both here and on swordforum.com. Please do a search instead of speculating about it in this thread.

    In fact, folded or unfolded swords has nothing really to do with this subject!
    But speculation and going off on tangents is what e-Budo.com is all about, isn't it? If I just wanted to read someone else's opinions without a two-way exchange/debate I could buy a book.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  2. #32
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    My point was that there is no mystery behind swordmaking. It is scientific in process, even when done by feel. Facts and speculation are different things. But feel free to pull this thread off tangent. It will be fun for us, but everyone else will eventually get tired of scrolling through our noise and give up.

    Off to keiko,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  3. #33
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    Originally posted by Nathan Scott
    Hi all,

    I'd like to add a few things:

    John, that's what you get for reading books by Daniel Furuya!



    This is not necessarily correct, and is perhaps the subject of this thread. Metal can cut metal without damage, as long as the cutting metal is sufficiently harder than the metal being cut. I have a few Strider Knives that proove this. Other examples are the aforementioned kabutorwari by kenshi like Obata Sensei, in which a heat treated helmet was partially split, but the blade used was not damaged (didn't chip of bend).

    As a more common example, tin snips are metal scissors that are made to cut tin.

    So the question remains, what type of barrel was split (not cut) by a Japanese sword in this propaganda video? Even if it was a non-functional barrel, painted black and made of annealed alluminum or tin or something, it would have given the apperance of a sword having cut a gun - even from up close. chances are more likely that it was painted bamboo or wood though. There has to be copies of this footage around somewhere, don't ya think?

    Also, there has been much written about folding swords and what it does, both here and on swordforum.com. Please do a search instead of speculating about it in this thread.

    Folding does not make a sword "stronger" from a literal standpoint, it removes impurities from the steel and makes it more uniform. Take out too much carbon and impurities, and the steel becomes too soft. In fact, folded or unfolded swords has nothing really to do with this subject!

    Glad to see a thread dedicated to this myth though.

    Regards,
    I haven't said metal and metal caused chips and nicks, but notice I said steel and steel contacts have caused nicks. You wouldn't believe how many busted katanas or Claymores or any type of sword I've seen broken swords because some guy wanted to cut stoplights, railroad tracks, and/or pipes from the hardware store.

    There is a Chinese weapon called a sword breaker (don't know what it is called formally) and many cultures have this. It's basically a steel rod. The Okinawan sai are also dubbed as sword breakers. But sword on sword contact, you can expect chips and nicks on the blade, it's a natural process and it's enevitable.

    I brought up folding, and I did certainly say that it was to make the poor iron quality in Japan workable, and to spread the carbon content. However, the folding process goes hand-in-hand with the process because many people advertise that the katana is some sort of god weapon because it's been folded X many times.

    The design of the katana allows it to have a harder edge and a softer back. You will get scratches, nicks, and bring damage to your sword when you go up against another sword.

  4. #34
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    Originally posted by The Coffee God
    Actually in John Yumoto's book "The Samurai Sword, a Handbook" he mentions that the way a katana is forged, by the time it has been folded 10 times, it exceeds 300,000 layers. He gives a very specific number in the 300,000 range, but I don't have the book any more so I'm just paraphrasing at the moment.
    Okay, the above quote was posted almost a month ago, but I just received a copy of John Yumoto's book yesterday, and wanted to clarify this.

    The book says (page 95, middle of the page): "The pattern these layers assume is called the grain (hada). By the time the steel has been folded fifteen times, there will be 32,768 layers of steel."

    You will note that that is the exact number I gave in my table earlier in this thread. It appears that The Coffe God mentally misplaced the comma and added a zero in his recollection of this book, in addition to thinking the reference was to 10 folds, rather than 15.

    I'm glad I got this book. Although it was first published in 1958, it has a lot of good information I've not seen before such as a table of relative values, charts of smiths and their styles/periods, etc. Had it not been for this thread going off on a tangent and The Coffe God mentioning this book I might not ever have come across it.

    Who says Web surfing's a waste of time!
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  5. #35
    The Coffee God Guest

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    I told you I was paraphrasing, it's been quite a few years since I read the book and I'm suprised I even remember that much of it.
    Thinking about it though, I think my copy had a typo, because I went to Barnes & Noble the other day and reread the making process in that book and you are indeed correct, it is 15/32,768.
    I'm glad I could bring up a book of interest to your attention, it is a really good book from what I remember. I guess I should break down and buy another copy for my library.

  6. #36
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    Originally posted by The Coffee God
    I guess I should break down and buy another copy for my library.
    Mine is the 1999, 35th printing! 1958 - 1999. That's quite a run for a book on what is, after all, a rather obscure topic. I got mine at Kinokuniya Books for US$21.95, the publisher's (Tuttle) list price.

    I'm just now looking at the list of kanji in Chapter 6, Inscriptions and Their Readings. 17 pages!

    Several pages of illustrations of hamon patterns, types of flaws, etc.

    For a collector or sword enthusiast, this could be a valuable addition to the library.

    I still recommend The Craft of the Japanese Sword by Kapp, Kapp, and Yoshihara. The latter is a smith, from a family of smiths, and in addition to the chapters on sword history and forging methods the book also includes chapters on the art of habaki and saya making. It has some nice color plates, too.

    I have the first addition, 1987, by Kodansha. I don't know if it's still in print.

    Good reading!
    Last edited by Brian Owens; 4th November 2003 at 08:12.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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