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Thread: So what makes a good technique?

  1. #1
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    Question

    In the BJJ/JJJ thread Toby made the following statement:

    "Most Jujutsu systems are so subtle in application that the slightest loss of fine motor skills and spatial awareness renders them impossible to apply effectively. Without addressing this aspect of combat you will not have the tools available to be successful on the street."

    Now this got me to thinking, (which is always dangerous ) Is it true that Jujutsu requires such control that the loss of fine motor skills renders it useless?

    Jujutsu can range from an almost karate style hardness, to an aikido softness, that is it's appeal, at least to me, and somewhere in this range there is the perfect technique for almost every defence. This is one reason why so much more study is required to master jujutsu as opposed to some other arts.

    So what makes a good technique?

    By this I do not want a list of specific techniques and why they are good for defence, as we will probably never agree on this. My body type makes one technique practical and another useless, your body type is different and so the opposite is true. Plus the fact that what I call tekubihineri, you call kotehineri and someone else calls wrist twist.

    What I mean is what factors are common in all techniques that make them good? We can all watch a demonstration or a movie and say "that was a good technique" but do we know why?

    Is it balance, control and direction? If so why are they important?

    I'll think about this some more, but I'd like your views.

    Regards
    Neil

    ------------------
    The one thing that must be learnt, but cannot be taught is understanding.

  2. #2
    TimHillman Guest

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    To me a good technique is one that can be applied from a number of attacks and will work almost all of the time. Make yourself a list of "never fail techniques", these are the ones that you can do all of the time on any attacker using a number of different attacks.

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    Tim Hillman

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    A good technique is one that a 110-pound woman can use consistently to stop a 260-pound NFL linebacker armed with a tire iron without seriously injuring anyone.

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    Joe
    http://ejmas.com

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    A good technique is flexible. It can be used in a parking lot, or in a phone booth. It can apply excruciating pain, or gently redirect. It can found without looking, as it will appear as a natural by product of the force that is intercepted. Good techniques are the ones that the founders of schools only start to understand themselves after years of practice. Not because they are complex..but because they are so simple and fundamental that their practice involves years of stripping away all that is unneccessary.

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    Krzysztof M. Mathews
    " For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me"
    -Rudyard Kipling

  5. #5
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    A good technique is not to use ANY technique...or to use ANY technique....

    oops sorry

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    Szczepan Janczuk

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    Come on guy's, what sort of half-hearted answers are those?

    Below the points I consider to be the most important factors in examining practical technique. These allow an informed judgment on how effective it is and how well it has been performed. I'll list them now, get some feed back, then explain them in detail later.

    1. Good Attack
    2. Use of Body Movement
    3. Appropriate Unbalancing
    4. Mechanically Correct
    5. Economical use of Strength
    6. Economical use of Movement

    These cover the technical considerations of a technique however, one must never forget the use of strategy.

    Strategy refers to the best possible position for the body during defence and the choice of an appropriate defence in the event of attack. There is little point in doing a technique against a group of attackers if the defence places you in a dangerous position, such as with your back toward the other attackers.

    Good strategy with poor technique, is as dangerous as poor strategy and good technique, but strategy does not affect the practicality of the technique itself, it merely gives you options after the technique is completed.

    Regards
    Neil

    ------------------
    The one thing that must be learnt, but cannot be taught is understanding.

  7. #7
    Dokanyama Guest

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    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph Svinth:
    A good technique is one that a 110-pound woman can use consistently to stop a 260-pound NFL linebacker armed with a tire iron without seriously injuring anyone.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Whatever! I'll put my money on the 260-pound NFL linebacker with the tire iron! Without the tire iron even!

    Jujutsu isn't a new age cure all! There are times when sheer strength is going to win out over technique, especially when there are no weapons, as in the case of hand to hand. Atributes such as speed and strength are just as important in survival as the techniques themselves, if not more so.

    A few years ago, the guy who ran my powerlifting team, let's call him Randy, also played beer-team slow-pitch softball. During a game, one of the guys from the other team said something about Randy's mother. I have never seen a big man move like he did. He was out of the dugout and into the other team's dugout quicker than you would think for a guy who weighed around 300+ pounds. The other guy, actually took a swing at Randy with the bat, but Randy grabed him, bat and all, and gave him a squeeze. They had to take the guy to the hospital and the cops took Randy to Jail for the day. By the way, these were all State corrections officers who had at least some training (not that I think the training is/was good but that they had it, same as all police recruits who go through acadamy plus training for dealing with violent inmates.) I don't think the guy with the bat had a chance, and a 110 pound unarmed woman (or man) with what ever jujutsu training- NO WAY.NO CHANCE!

    Size and strength, and just plain meanness- the mental edge (even steriod induced) gives one an advantage over the physically weaker person whether his technique is better or not. That is reality! (I know I'll get in trouble for saying that... O well...)

    The best technique; it's the one that keeps you alive. If you can do that without hurting anyone, great! if you have to hurt the other person to stay alive, worry about it later.

    But then, we'll all have all the time we need to practice "pretty" technique once your dead.

    Unless we are talking dojo only waza, and not worrying about the realities of combat.This is the koryu forum right. The focus in Koryu isn't self-defence (originally), it's focus should mainly be (traditionally) on the quickest way to dispatch your oponent.That was the aim of training the professional Japanese soldier and how he stayed alive to see another day.If you want to talk about Jujutsu as self-defence (mainly) then we have to talk gendai budo. Let's face it, asthetics should be a secondary worry and effectiveness a priority.

    Mr. Svinth, this isn't an attack on your opinion. But I think one of the problems with modern martial arts is people think Aikido, jujutsu, whatever, is a magical thing that will give the physically weak an advantage over the physically strong. Maybe some think this is true of Koryu as well, and it probably is when we speak weapon systems. While training in a jujutsu system helps a lot, there are many cases where it isn't going to help you at all (in the case of the 110 pound woman- or man). Let's face it, there is a reason professional military and (most) police spend so much time on gaining physical combative attributes such as strength and the mental/survival aspect of violent encounters.

    Thomas James


    [This message has been edited by Dokanyama (edited 06-07-2000).]

  8. #8
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

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    Hello Neil,

    To my thinking, "good technique" is one which has one or at most two counts to it (two beats). It is simple to apply, works when your hands and knees are shaking, and works against people bigger and stronger than you. It gets plusses for shock value, that is you can apply it so quickly that the guy is had before he realizes it (of course, that is more strategy than technique).

    It is good if the same basic method can be used to either immobilize someone if you wish to use it that way, or break limbs/heads/throats if you want to finish it quick.

    And it must naturally flow into the other techniques which make up your system, in case he happens to know how to counter it.

    Thomas,

    I agree with most of what you say. A lot of koryu techniques (and modern police and military CQB techniques for that matter) do surprise attacks (speed, surprise, violence of action) in order to take an enemy out or completely control him for arrest/hostage taking, so that he cannot mount a threat against you.

    But self -defense manuevers are not only "gendai budo." Maybe I am reading too much into what you wrote, but koryu methods contain a lot of techniques for defeating attacks on your person, where the enemy has the initiative, assaults you, and you counter him and take the initiative back. To me that is self-defense.

    Kit

  9. #9
    Dokanyama Guest

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    Kit,

    How is there in Portland? I miss it.

    I sort of got the soapbox back there didn't I?

    Well, if you call killing your opponent/enemy to stay alive self defense then I agree with you. That is what Koryu was mainly created for. I am not saying that gendai budo is less leathal than koryu just because it's gendai. That wasn't the point. But I don't think koryu waepon systems were created for self defense as we think of self defense in America today.Maybe, jujutsu systems were different, but I think the ultimate goal was more along the lines of killing rather than preserving life. A very important aspect of koryu is the mental side, by theat I mean, koryu was created by professional bugei who were concerned with staying alive. Maybe in peaceful times, the focus changed, but the nature of the beast didn't change.

    This is just my take on it, it's not any more or less true than anyone elses

    By the way, could you send me a note privately, I have some questions I would like to ask you about some things that are probably not of interest to others on the board.

    Thanks Kit.

    dokanyama@hotmail.com

    tj

  10. #10
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    Six months ago it seemed to be generally agreed on E-budo's aikijutsu threads that the touch of an aiki master had the power to send anyone, even Chris Dolman or Cheng Man-ch'ing, instantly flopping on the floor like a fish. When I suggested otherwise, I was told that I was simply displaying my ignorance. Meanwhile, on another thread I learned that repeated full-power kicks to the groin have no stopping power whatsoever to someone who possesses Combat Ki, something that can be learned by anyone after just a single paid seminar with a certain master.

    Personally I think this is hogwash, but then I'm not an aiki master, just a community center karate teacher.

    Be that as it may, that image of the linebacker is precisely the one that I use when teaching self-defense. In an American context, it encourages you to see if you can't talk your way out of this and in a Japanese context it teaches you that the way of the warrior is the resolute acceptance of death. And it isn't implausible; Tohei S. once eluded five judoka at once, including a former college linebacker trying a flying tackle. Quite exciting, said Mr. Tohei, but good practice.

    Anyway, first learn avoidance of conflict. Second, practice putting words back into the other person's face. And finally, breathe, center, relax. Everything else stems from that.

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    Joe
    http://ejmas.com

  11. #11
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    Joseph,

    Right on.

    Thomas,

    Physical attributes are obviously desirable. Training too is desirable. They are both part of the combat equation.

    If I was a 110 pound woman being attacked by the 300 pounder, I would prefer to have some training under my belt. It gives me more of a chance for survival.

    It is all about improving the odds.

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

  12. #12
    Dokanyama Guest

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    Mr. Cook:

    I'll still?@put my money on the line backer over the 110 woman no matter how training she has had. I'm not saying training is unimportant. I agree with with all you guys, but like Mr. Svinth, I'll not buy into the Aiki master touch crap nor the kicks to groin thing. That just plain silly.

    I don't really care who I make angry, because those who think that way are in for some rude awakings to reality if reality ever gets mean with them. If they really meet someone mean, and put that guy on PCP or LSD and see how easy it is stop him. Maybe they have been watching too many movies. But if you are willing to stand there and let some fool kick you in the groin, then hey, they are just as stupid as they sound.

    The situation with Tohei S. probably would have been different if the guys chasing him were told anything goes; biting, poking an eye out, hitting in the throat, maybe a broken bottle... or 10,000 yen to the guy who draws his blood first, and it might have turned out different. And then, he wasn't a 110 pound woman either, was he!


    Reality and the sterile environment of the dojo are never going to be the same! You do what you can to teach your students to protect them selves, but sometimes lfe just isn't fair and the bad guys win.

    Thomas

  13. #13
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    Speaking of that 110 pound woman, I saw a 125 pound woman police officer take a 6'2" 220 pound man right out of a subway station. The conductor who called her even told her to get back up. When she confronted the trouble maker, she took a pen out of her pocket and shoved it up his nose. He had no problem following orders after that. Maybe the right technique and the advantage of surprise can work despite physical differences.

  14. #14
    Daniel Pokorny Guest

    Cool

    I personally believe a good technique is any one that allows you to escape the situation unharmed, or alive at the least. I also have to agree with Mr. Thomas James here. Too many times I have witnessed people that train get into a real situation thinking their art will protect them, only to end up pondering what went wrong while the doctor stitches them up afterwards!

    Regards,

    Daniel C. Pokorny


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    I think part of the equation is the environment of training. It is not simply a question of the technique itself, but also that of the emotional space surrounding the technique. In many dojos, there is a deemphasis on factors like kiai and zanshin that can make or break a technique. Very few people have a realistic understanding of Atemi-Waza, which Ueshiba Sensei felt to be a critical element of the art. Some people have never experienced being seriously punched, as they are accustomed to smooth, well telegraphed strikes that move at half speed. Sadly, I have met plenty of people who are not accustomed to rough language, shouting, or even a fierce expression. A number of people that I know are also uncomfortable with knife techniques and will conspicuously avoid such classes. This does not even begin to touch on varibles of environment. If a person is not trained to respond to realistic environments, attacks and circumstances, it is quite possible that they will not have the proper cues that will allow them to adjust appropriately to an unexpected situation. Aikido became accepted more readily among many police officers in the Cranston, RI area after an incident in which a diminutive( Roughly five foot tall) female officer effectively took down and restrained a large male troublemaker who had to be forcibly removed from a public school. The technique she used was ikkyo- first technique. What I suspect made the technique effective was the combination of the fundamental mechanics of the technique with a no !!!!!!!! "you-are-coming-with-me-right NOW!!" attitude.

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    Krzysztof M. Mathews
    " For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me"
    -Rudyard Kipling

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