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Thread: Meik's comments on solo waza training from Jo Forum

  1. #16
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    Talking Re: Re: Hayashizaki Ryu?

    Originally posted by Charles Mahan
    What you saw on a video is hardly conclusive of what the regular training curriculum of Hayashizaki ryu is like.
    TRUE.

    Originally posted by Charles Mahan
    Are you asserting that most of their training looks like this?
    Have you seen a nihon kobudo series video?

    Standard format.

    Few minute blurp on location and history.

    View of mokuroku with the kata names.

    Perform kata.

    REGARDLESS of the training structure in the class, THOSE ARE THE KATAS OF THE RYU.

    I practice Muso Shinden Ryu at several places. None of these places train the same way. That doesn't mean the Muso Shinden Ryu katas aren't the same.

    Originally posted by Charles Mahan
    I have seen a video of MJER two man forms being performed with iaito. Can I then draw the conclusion that MJER is predominantly 2 man waza with iaito?
    Yeah yeah...tachi uchi no gurai...yes...yes...bunkai...yeah yeah....

    Nihon Kobudo video series have a standard structure. If they performed it that way, I would naturally believe that is the structure of their "formal" curriculum. How they run class to achieve that knowledge is ANOTHER matter entirely.

    For any more information, I can't tell you because I didn't sign a keppan with them. And if I did, I still couldn't tell you!

    Originally posted by Charles Mahan
    Could have been a small set of waza in the whole system and one which they only trot out for special events for all I know.
    Like I said...do you know the standard format of the nihon kobudo video series?

    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

  2. #17
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    Originally posted by Charles Mahan
    Neil, I'm guessing based on your response that you did not find anything offensive in Meik's post?
    Well he states his case rather strongly, as is Meik's wont I think his mistake is in assuming that a iaidoka's training goals are his. If your training goal is to somehow become a complete swordsman, with your best chances of surviving an actual sword fight, then yeah iai is not enough. IMNSHO. I don't think most iaidoka are shooting for that. If they are, I think they're delusional.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    Every Iaidoka I know is training to survive the mythical sword encounter, which none of us will ever see.

    So I guess we're all delusional then thank you very much for your support.

    Of course that depends on our respective definitions of "complete". Am I well trained to strap on armour and wade onto a Japanese battlefield? No I don't know enough about archery, spears, or horsemanship, and I'm violently alergic to horses anyway.

    Do I know enough to handle myself if I was jumped in an alley way or ambushed on a crowded street? Well no, but that's what I'm training for. If small scale(read non-battlefield) conflict is what you are training for then, iai, or at least MJER, is quite effective. Does that then make me delusional? Apparently. If so it makes my instructor delusional also, and his, and his, etc.

    Now if my definition of complete and your definition of complete are in fact different am I still delusional? Is it still ok for someone to disparage my art for not being up to their standard, dismissing any worth that it might have for what it was intended for?
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

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    Default Re: Re: Re: Hayashizaki Ryu?

    Originally posted by DCPan
    TRUE.
    Have you seen a nihon kobudo series video?

    Standard format.

    Few minute blurp on location and history.

    View of mokuroku with the kata names.

    Perform kata.

    Nope. Clearly I have not. Still it is not indicative of what daily training is like. Anyone seeing a video of all the MJER waza would conclude that the predominant waza of the system would be split roughly 3 ways between standing solo waza, tate-hiza waza, and kumitachi waza, with a small set of seiza waza at the very beginning which make up a puny part of the curriculum overall.

    Is that indicative of the average training schedule of MJER? Not really. Again I find this inconclusive evidence. Not saying they don't spend a lot of time training this way. I'm just saying that, while the video shows the training tools used to learn the system, the video is not really indicative of the training curriculum as it does not indicate where the emphasis is.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  5. #20
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    Default

    Originally posted by Charles Mahan
    Every Iaidoka I know is training to survive the mythical sword encounter, which none of us will ever see.

    So I guess we're all delusional then thank you very much for your support.
    [snip]
    Now if my definition of complete and your definition of complete are in fact different am I still delusional? Is it still ok for someone to disparage my art for not being up to their standard, dismissing any worth that it might have for what it was intended for?
    I didn't say my art was up to that standard either. I know how to hit people with a light round stick where the consequences of missing are not severe in the slightest. There's a big gap between what I do and a real swordfight. You know how to move very well and handle a real blade very well. But I don't think your training deals with the unpredictability of a real opponent, and maai with teki is a different kettle of fish from maai with an aite.

    Iai was just one component of what real swordsmen studied. Wheels on the cart, as they say. So yeah, the delusional comment stands.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    Talking In fairness....

    Hi Charles,

    In all fairness, I have a problem with some of the things Meik said too. In the thread of what Mr. Lowry wrote about koryu snobbery, I mention the example of how "someone" thinks kendo kata is a useful tool, but not the way kendo folks practice it.

    Frankly, he's got a point. Most kendo folks don't practice until shinza time, and it shows.

    However, it does offend me because he didn't qualify his statements. You can find a lot of problems about the way novices practice ANYTHING!!!

    If Meik is talking about hachidans that don't know how to do kendo kata, I would be more concerned...as for how the college tournament champs can't do kata worth crap, who cares?

    As I learned my kendo kata from a sensei who learned it directly from Ogawa Kinnosuke, I take exception to this "don't know kendo kata" stuff.

    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

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    Originally posted by gendzwil
    Iai was just one component of what real swordsmen studied. Wheels on the cart, as they say. So yeah, the delusional comment stands. [/B]
    I'm sorry you feel that way.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  8. #23
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    Default History

    When speaking of validity of a style and its practicality looks remember our history. Iai really is the product of the Tokugawa era, when people were not armored and engaged in duels or in combat in the street, with what would then be street clothes. Prime example would be the Shinsengumi fighting rougues, ronin etc. In an actual battlefield encounter one would use the bow and spear first and then resort to the sword as last resort or to apply the coup de grace. In this case more than likely the sword was already drawn, and the need of drawing first to get that "first strike" was irrelevant. None of us will ever have to fight in armor and hand to hand anytime in our lives or in the future (sans a nuclear apocalypse and were left in the middle ages again), but who really cares. We study the sword to polish our souls, and not necessarily to use it for combat. Also if you recall sword arts all go back to the same source and the overlap of kendo, iaido or iaijutsu, and kenjutsu is apparent. They are indeed all wheels on the same cart. The founder of Eishin ryu practiced kenjutsu first and developed Iai out of need to counteract another person's known ability. He figured if he could draw and cut first he would win, and we all know he did.

    As I said before if it is so important to prove your actual mettle with the blade then be like Mushashi and go on a mugyo testing your ability. Otherwise let it lie and enjoy the sword for what it is. A way of polishing character and brining peace to the world.
    Gary MacMullen
    MJER Jikishinkai
    Big Green Drum Japanese Martial Arts
    (Formerly Aikido of West Florida)

    Mi ni tanoshimi o takamazu - Musashi
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

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    Question My question is the same one that I always have ...

    Mr. Mahan,
    Who are you training for? Mr. Skoss has some strong opinions on how things should be based upon his lengthy experience. I have no problem with that what so ever. In fact, it is to be expected. You have some strong opinions on things based upon your experiences also, as it should be. His opinion is different than yours and this offends you. While I believe that the sword community is still small, and we would all be better served without disparaging remarks, that does not prevent them from happening. This brings me back to my question. Are you training to better yourself and master the use of the sword, or are you training to impress others with your abilities and how you are a genuine old style samurai death dealing machine?

    When it gets right down to it, we are all playing with swords. (That should offend quite a few people ) We try and train with the proper attitude and mind set, but we all know that we will never have the opportunity to find out if what we are learning is effective or not. Therefore, any debate on effectivity and proper training method is mental gymnastics at best.

    There are some of Mr. Skoss' opinions that I don't agree with either, but they don't bother me. What other people think about what I learn and how I practice it does not enter into my normal thinking. It's interesting to know what others think, but in the end it's my opinion that counts. I can see how you could take offense when you think that someone is putting down the training that you are so passionate about. But perhaps there's a reason that you are the only one that gets upset, despite the fact that there are quite a few senior MJER practitioners that read this forum. Just a few random thoughts to consider.

    Cheers,
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  10. #25
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    Originally posted by Charles Mahan

    I respectfully, but firmly, disagree that partnered practice is THE method of transmission. The one and only. Except no substitutes. I don't doubt for a second that it is the predominant method in many if not most koryu, but not in iai. Name one Iai koryu that does predominantly paired exericises as the core of their curriculum. Not a Kenjutsu koryu that happens to do Iai. An Iai koryu.
    Just to add a couple points for consideration on the topic, it has been my experience looking into old koryu iai traditions that come the Meiji period there seemed to be a very sudden and pronounced decrease in the use of partnered kata in these traditions across the board. I suspect the sudden spread of kendo had a major role in this since the traditional ryuha in general was in a sort of state of flux in this period due to the sudden changes in the social climate.

    Another point I have noticed is that a disproportionally large number of the people heading up "iai only" traditions also had strong connections with other ryu that did focus on the two people training method. Two examples off the top of my head are Sekiguchi ryu having connections to Hyoho Niten Ichi ryu or the family heading of one line of Hoki ryu also being the heads of their own lines of Yoshin ryu naginatajutsu and Shiten ryu jujutsu. So while their training in iai might be more "solo" that usual, these people still had plenty for training in the two sided realm. This sort of thing seems fairly common in the western side of Japan, although I will admit that my research has been skewed to the western parts of Japan and I have little idea of this was common in the Kanto and Tohoku areas as well.

    And what about domain schools? A large chunk of the warrior class was trained at these. Here the students were expected to get a "rounded" training in the military arts and many ryuha existed together in the same location. Thus while a student might study mostly solo practice during his iai training, he is also getting plenty of partnered training in his other training sessions.

    Basically I guess my main point is that traditionally iai doesn't appear to be something that was just practiced in isolation of everything else as it is today. It was part of a broader cultural whole that doesn't really exist today.

    Just some random thought

    Rennis Buchner

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    Default Re: My question is the same one that I always have ...

    Originally posted by pgsmith
    Mr. Mahan,
    Who are you training for? Mr. Skoss has some strong opinions on how things should be based upon his lengthy experience. I have no problem with that what so ever. In fact, it is to be expected. You have some strong opinions on things based upon your experiences also, as it should be. His opinion is different than yours and this offends you. While I believe that the sword community is still small, and we would all be better served without disparaging remarks, that does not prevent them from happening.
    Ahh the age old question? Why do you train? To which I normally respond, because it's Tuesday and we have class on Tuesdays. No I am not training to impress others. None of that is really relevant. What bothers me is not that he has a poor opinion of the manner in which I train. What bothers me is the that he chooses to express that opinion in such a public forum. Perhaps it shouldn't. That's the subject of this thread.

    This thread is not a debate concerning the validity of one training method over another. It is intended specifically to discuss whether or not disparaging other styles is acceptable.

    Only one senior MJER guy with ties to my association still posts here. I have no connection with the others.

    So far the consensus appears to be that disparaging remarks are in fact acceptable. That is disheartening.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  12. #27
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    Good post, Rennis, thanks.
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

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    Rennis beat me to the punch, but I want to reiterate it: as I have pointed out ad nauseaum in numerous other posts on this subject, the original MJER was a sogo bugei that included solo battou techniques, paired kata practice, taijutsu and yawara techniques, bojutsu , jojutsu and torinawa. Everything except the solo battou and some of the paired kata has been lost. This is a simple fact.

    I have also pointed out that in the original MJER curriculum, paired kata outnumbered solo kata. So it is obvious that up until the end of Meiji, at least, the practitoners of MJER felt quite strongly that paired kata practice was essential. My teacher Masaoka Kazumi (Katsukane) a direct student of Oe Masamichi and the recipient of the Kongen no Maki from him, says so in so many words in his book Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai Heiho Chi no Maki (The Earth Book of MJER Iai Heiho).

    Modern iai has, like many of the martial arts in Japan, has been reconfigured as a method of ningen keisei, or character building. The actual martial application of the techniques is no longerr the most paramount consideration. Iwata Sensei says quite plainly that many of the kata have been changed specifically so that they can be more easily judged and evaluated in a competition. If real martial efficacy were the paramount consideration, it would be absolutely impossible to contemplate something as fundamental as changing the waza for the benefit of judges.

    Is modern iai as it is generally practiced a complete martial art? The answer to this depends completely on your rreasons for practicing it. If you practice solo iai kata thinking that you are learning a complete swordfighting art, then, yes, I think you are deluding yourself. If you think "it is enough for you", then fine. Go with it. However, it is an incontovertible historical fact that MJER as it is generally practiced today is primarily the creation of Oe Masamichi, who redacted and "rationalized" the curriculum in late Meiji/early Taisho; and it lacks great chunks of the original curriculum. The fact that it exists today at all is nothing short of a marvel. But it is not the same art that it once was.

    Anyway, Charles, you need to grow a thicker skin and study a little more deeply. Also, if you think you are not in danger practicing jo with Meik, you are simply misinformed.
    Last edited by Earl Hartman; 7th October 2003 at 20:08.
    Earl Hartman

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    Ugh. I guess it's inevitable now. This thread has been hijacked. I give up.


    Also, if you think you are not in danger practicing jo with Meik, you are simply misinformed.
    I never said I wasn't. In fact, I specifically stated in the original post that at the time I discounted jo I was playing the roll of devils advocate to make a point about why it is not ok to disparage other styles based on how you percieve the effectiveness of their training system to be.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

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    Hi guys,

    I agree completely with Neil. Those studying Kendo and Iaido should be realistic about what the purpose of the art is. Kendo and Iaido both provide very important sword skills, but are not comprehensive in nature. That is why the ZNKR adopted iaido and jodo into their federation.

    I believe Meik was referring to the fact that many if not most students of Kendo and Iaido DO believe that they are learning "the art of the samurai", or at least an art that will make them a "swordsman". As Rennis said though, it is CRITICAL to have extensive paired practice (sotai kata) if not free style exchanges to understand swordsmanship. As discussed previously, you can choose to cross train in a number of sword arts to fill in the blanks, or, study one art that is comprehensive - or more comprehensive. This isn't just my opinion btw, it has been brought up by any number of very senior teachers of all the sword arts. Kendo, Iaido and Tameshigiri, etc. To disagree with this fact is to disagree with a number of senior budo-ka - though you are of course free to do so.

    A lot of people have a problem with how Meik presents himself. Most people want to learn what he has to offer, but only want to learn it on their own terms. From my experience, budo doesn't work that way. Meik has far more experience and knowledge than most of us in Japanese budo, and there is a great deal that can be learned from him if you are hungry to learn it. But if you are not comfortable with learning new things the way he presents them, then just ignore his posts. It's a free world. It's not that I'm trying to justify rude behavior (as some perceive it), as I am a big fan of manners, but maybe Meik has earned a certain amount of slack when you consider his experience and contributions to budo?

    I'd also mention that a number of experienced budo-ka are finding it increasingly tough to find the patience to deal with juniors in the arts who can't be bothered with extending common courtesy to those older and more experienced (or anyone for that matter). Personally, the newer generation are coming out (in many cases) with zero social skills and manners, which is a whole other subject for discussion.

    Anyway, point being - be realistic about what you're doing and enjoy it, and don't spend too much time worrying about what this person may or may not have meant. We are all a community here at e-budo, and as such you get a feel for the personalities of the contributors. None of us are perfect - some can't spell, some don't know anything, some are too blunt in their writings, etc etc. But if ya'll forgive my shortcomings I'll try to overlook yours!

    Regards,

    PS. Sometimes, tameshigiri targets DO move!
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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