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Thread: Meik's comments on solo waza training from Jo Forum

  1. #31
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    I guess it depends on what you mean by disparaging. I didn't mean to disparage iaido, I think it's a fine martial art that serves many people very well. We just disagree on the extent to which it trains people for actual sword combat. I happen to think kendo has the exact same "problem", but that doesn't invalidate it either. I think the substance of Meik's comments is essentially my view, expressed with a little more attitude. So is the question is it OK to speak what you believe to be the truth in a straightforward manner?
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  2. #32
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    Originally posted by gendzwil
    I guess it depends on what you mean by disparaging. I didn't mean to disparage iaido, I think it's a fine martial art that serves many people very well. We just disagree on the extent to which it trains people for actual sword combat. I happen to think kendo has the exact same "problem", but that doesn't invalidate it either. I think the substance of Meik's comments is essentially my view, expressed with a little more attitude. So is the question is it OK to speak what you believe to be the truth in a straightforward manner?
    Therein of course lies the rub. People who make disparaging remarks about others, usually, if not always, believe that they are true. So because the poster believes the statement to be true, means it is ok?

    If I believed the things I wrote while playing devils advocate in the first post, would it be ok for me to go about espousing those views in public forums?
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  3. #33
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    To take your argument to its logical conclusion, nobody is allowed to make any criticism of anything.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  4. #34
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    Eh maybe your right Neil. As Nathan pointed out, common courtesy seems in terribly short supply these days. It doesn't seem like too much to ask.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  5. #35
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    Yeah, but are you asking for courtesy or are you asking not to be offended? They aren't the same thing. You took offense at my comments about iaido, for example. But my viewpoint is not unique, it is widely held and often by iaidoka themselves. Ask Kim Taylor about it sometimes, he'll say the same thing I did in stronger language. I thought I was being fairly courteous.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

  6. #36
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    Originally posted by gendzwil
    Yeah, but are you asking for courtesy or are you asking not to be offended? They aren't the same thing. You took offense at my comments about iaido, for example. But my viewpoint is not unique, it is widely held and often by iaidoka themselves. Ask Kim Taylor about it sometimes, he'll say the same thing I did in stronger language. I thought I was being fairly courteous.
    No, I took offense at being referred to as delusional, not your position.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  7. #37
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    Since I'm not Meik I can't say what his motivations for stating things the way he did was but personally I just read it as a sort of "injecting a little reality into the discussion" type of statement. Meik can come across as gruff sometimes I suppose, but with the years of experience he has had, his opinions are definately worth paying more attention to than many others out there. Even the supposedly always "proper" Japanese will, when the occassion warrants it, call a spade a spade. Meik came across to me simply as being direct. He qualified some of his statements and never said anything to the effect that "all iai types are losers". Hell, compared to some things I have seen Japanese sensei say about each other Meik was downright civil. For example one Japanese iai sensei I know told another sensei (who is many years his senior) of the same ryu that he had sold out to the kendo federation, didn't care for tradition and was only interested in furthering his own rank, and further more in the process ruined all the techniques of the ryu as he teaches them because of it and shouldn't use the name of the ryu for what he does anymore. On top of it all, he did it in a public venue with the guy's students, among many others, there.

    Now if we really to turn things on their head and confuse the issue of manners and common courtesy, couldn't we also argue that taking a respected teacher's comments that might have been phrased better and making a whole thread out of them a bit improper for a proper budo manners point of view? Seems to me most Japanese sensei I know would be courteous to him and simply not make any sort of public comment on them one way or the other. After all he might have just been having a bad day and said something he normally wouldn't have. Or if you wanted to discussion the point you have an issue with, you could bring it up in broad terms without mentioning specific incident per se? (Please note I am using the general "you" here, nothing personal is meant by this in any way to the creator of this thread, I'm just trying to broaden the discussion on what equals "good manners" and point out that what is "proper" in these sort of discussions can vary greatly depending on what point of view you take)


    But enough of my banter....
    Rennis Buchner

  8. #38
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    Default Can of worms again!

    Okay...

    Just a curious thought....

    When one becomes more advanced in something, don't people usually expect MORE of them?

    So, why is someone of MORE experience given MORE slack?

    I'm not talking about the whole Mr. Skoss issue now.

    Instead, I find it curious that I find a lot of TOLERANCE for the crap that the seniors dish out...and yes, that includes gendai budo.

    I guess in the olden days, it would behoove you to be totally devoted to the senior/sensei/soke because what he choose to teach OR NOT teach you could mean LIFE or DEATH because your life hangs on your knowledge/ability in the arts.

    Nowadays, it's not like your life depends on what the sensei shows you or doesn't.

    Like the last time a group of famous kenshis from a famous Japanese University came. I thought they were very good until the most senior of the visitors said "Where are the yudanshas?" in a snicker because he was cleaning house on everyone....He was good, but not THAT good.

    With all the talk of "ningen keisei", isn't this double standard of MORE slack for the senior kind of curious?

    David "Obviously not senior enough to understand this...."
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

  9. #39
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    The fact that it exists today at all is nothing short of a marvel.
    I would posit that without the great reformers Oe Masamichi and Nakayama Hakudo, it is quite possible that Iaido would be small and forgotten today. They might be an obscure Tosa koryu sogo budo, waiting for someone like Meik Skoss to bring them out into the daylight.

    Sorry but like others I have a hard time limiting discussion to discussing the discussion, rather than the object of the discussion under discussion.

    Meik Skoss, if I may be so bold as to speak for him, based on my readings of his and his associates' works, defines Koryu in a particular way, which is universally based on a one-on-one, initimate teaching situation. Not all paired practice is koryu (eg Kendo, Seitei Jodo, Judo) so the issue is not entirely Paired vs Solo. There is a strong attitude amongst many gendai sensei (Judo, Kendo) that without shiai or some valid randori system, ANY martial art including koryu is just choreographed dancing. On the other hand these same gendai sensei also recognize the effectiveness of GOOD koryu when they see it, because they look with eyes used to really evaluating skill and openings, and testing same incontrovertibly. I trust my iai sensei when he says "you missed your target" or "you were just killed". But there is no incontrovertible subconscious feedback. It IS difficult to get a real idea of fighting from solo kata. That's why we love tachi uchi no kurai so much. Iai is a great way to learn sword handling, completing movements with a live blade. However Meik is right that, as he defines koryu, solo Iai is not koryu. It does not exhibit the hallmark of personal instruction in opposition to the headmaster. Perhaps it once did, and changed of necessity.
    Last edited by Jack B; 7th October 2003 at 23:03.
    Jack Bieler

    "The best things can't be told; the second best are misunderstood; the third best are what we talk about." - after Heinrich Zimmer

  10. #40
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Meik

    I find Meik to be a refreshing wind.. never blustery, just direct. But it doesn’t take much wind to blow down a weak house does it?

    I have enjoyed Meik immensely. The guy has even told me off and argued with me!! So What! I have also found him to be hilariously funny. As well I learned much from both his writing here, and he and his wife’s major contributions through Koryu Books. In fact I think that Koryu books will have as profound effect on Budo in the west as Stan Pranin's work did on the Historical connection of Daito ryu and Aikido.
    On a serious note- Meik even extended a hand to me (unasked) that changed my life and others I know personally. One other thing, -without going into detail- I will tell you that face to face he was just as brutally honest about his own training failures and successes as what he saw in others elsewhere. IN SHORT WE FOUND HIM ATTEMPTING TO BE; as just and fair and as accurate about what he "sees" as he could be.
    His demeanor and honesty impressed a room full of people who have spent half their lives in Budo and have spent significant time with many other Big guns of various arts. Perhaps we got the best of he and his wife because they knew they didn’t have to dance on eggshells.

    I find the “types” of people who are offended here are the types we see who are “offended” about just about everything. Its easy and cheap to have an open mind when you don’t have much in it-meaning you haven’t paid in sweat or years for hard won knowledge. Experience tends to “color” peoples views. It always has and always will.
    Life has taught me some pretty ugly truths. Namely that it isn’t fair and is not the way I pictured or hoped it would be. But it is the way it is.
    In Budo as in life its sometimes difficult to meet junior people who are “convinced” about certain things when they have nothing but beliefs to support it, or conversely those who are "open-to-anything because they are sure-of-nothing."

    Not a life I want to lead.

    Iai
    I have personally never met anyone immersed in Koryu who thought much of MJER and MSR Iai as anything practical. Just a sort of “thing” unto itself that has been _seriously_ altered over the years. Each successive year and senior acquaintance has deepened that view. Read the overviews above. They are a fair account of when and why its martial efficacy was gutted in its past. None of the commentary is politically correct and it doesn’t have to be.

    I have good friends who love Iai and continue to do it. But here's the thing-they are doing other intense paired kata to round out their skills. As for Iai debates? We train together, enjoy each other and playfully debate all the time. When I get sick of them I do Jujutsu.........

    Lighten up
    Cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 8th October 2003 at 02:27.

  11. #41
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    Talking

    Sounds to me like someone got their feelings hurt!

    The crusade is on the move!!!!

    BigTony
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    BIG TONY

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  12. #42
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    Originally posted by T. ALVAREZ
    The crusade is on the move!!!!
    Heh. Knew I could count on you Tony.

    Guess you guys have pretty much settled the arguement then. It is apparently perfectly acceptable to come out and use extremely harsh language to denegrate and disparage the fundamental training techniques of other systems in a public forum as long as you are a budo god, or speaking on the behalf of one. If you are a lowly student, then it is best to only speak when spoken to, and low to those who question the order of things.

    Guess that says a lot about this community. That said I will continue to keep my own views of other systems private, as two wrongs do not make a right.

    For those who haven't actually read this entire thread. I encourage you to do so now. Pay very close attention, particularly to what it was I actually wrote, and not what some have chosen to read into what I wrote. Draw your own conclusions.

    To those of you who practice Iai, and were not offended by the assertion that the core of your system is based on mental masturbation, I encourage you to reconsider your participation in Iai and wonder why it is exactly it doesn't offend you.

    To those who don't seem to understand why it is even offensive, well I don't know what to say to you.

    I would assert that it is this attitude that has driven many of the senior practioners to leave this forum.

    I think it is utterly amazing that someone has actually suggested that I am somehow at fault for all of this, because I was offended. Amazing. Utterly amazing.

    What's even more amazing is just how easily I am dismissed by those who have never met me, have no idea what my training is like, nor how extensive my experience might be. No idea who I've trained under, nor what my instruction has been like. Have I ever done the same to another?

    All I am guilty of is trying to increase the amount of inter-style tolerance. I categorically defy anyone to make a well reasoned and documented case otherwise based on my history of posts. Feel free to go to my profile and search my posts. There is a handy feature there that finds all posts. There are a little more than 500 to search through. Shouldn't take too long, if I'm the trouble maker that some would make me out to be.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  13. #43
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    Originally posted by Dan Harden

    I have personally never met anyone immersed in Koryu who thought much of MJER and MSR Iai as anything practical. Just a sort of “thing” unto itself that has been _seriously_ altered over the years. Each successive year and senior acquaintance has deepened that view. Read the overviews above. They are a fair account of when and why its martial efficacy was gutted in its past. None of the commentary is politically correct and it doesn’t have to be.
    Dan
    Dan,
    Your statement above, in and by itself, carries no weight at all.

    You haven't mentioned "everyone" you've met, who you've talked with or their knowledge of iai, or who you've watched do MJER or MSR: a limited sample is just that.

    Maybe if we stick to what we practice and share that we can see that there IS stuff in common. There's too much posturing in martial arts - its all kinda depressing actually - reputations to build and preserve. It's part of the package deal, but it still sucks.

    The *really* good guys don't give a rats @ss!!! what kind of smoke we blow up each other's @ss!!! - cuz their training while we type.

    And wouldn't you say that any koryu has HAD to change over the years due to necessity as well as 'other factors'?

    Heck, I'd be willing to bet that you could take any hard bastard koryu you want and if you had a time machine so that the founder could see what is practiced today they'd get a good belly laugh - especially over how much time is spent banging a keyboard as opposed to sweating on the mat.

    Hmmm - I proll'y should stop typin'....
    Erik

  14. #44
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    Talking Dammit! I just can't help myself ...

    First, in answer to David Pan ...
    So, why is someone of MORE experience given MORE slack?
    Because someone of more experience is not my priest, or my God. Therefore, I don't hold them to any higher standard. What they are is more experienced, with more knowledge, and a much better understanding. I eagerly await any comments, questions, or opinions of people with that much experience in koryu budo. I have learned more in offhand side comments from the likes of Meik Skoss than I have from hundreds of your posts David. No offense intended, but he has spent a good portion of his life researching and trying to understand the very things that I am currently working on. There are many of that caliber that still lurk here but, unfortunately for me, seldom bother to post anymore. You see, that's why I post here at e-budo, to learn from those that I would otherwise get to interact with very seldom if at all.

    Then on to Charles ...
    To those of you who practice Iai, and were not offended by the assertion that the core of your system is based on mental masturbation, I encourage you to reconsider your participation in Iai and wonder why it is exactly it doesn't offend you.
    I like to think that it's because I don't practice for someone else. I think it is you that needs to reconsider your participation in iai, and perhaps wonder why exactly it means so much to you what others think about your training. As I said earlier, actual duels or combat with a katana is a thing of the past. None of our sword arts will ever be used, that makes them all just mental masturbation.


    I think it is utterly amazing that someone has actually suggested that I am somehow at fault for all of this, because I was offended. Amazing. Utterly amazing.
    I'm sorry, but I am one that believes you are at fault. Not so much for being offended, you have every right to be offended if you so desire, but for whining so much about it. If your continued whining causes someone of Mr. Skoss' caliber to leave e-budo, then we have all lost out on a major source of highly researched information. If your being offended causes you to leave e-budo, we have all lost another mid-level practitioner's opinion. While I generally enjoy your opinions, the bald truth is someone of Mr. Skoss' caliber just gets more slack. Life ain't fair.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  15. #45
    Ben Bartlett Guest

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    Man, this is one of the oldest and touchiest subjects on this site, insofar as I can tell.
    Once more into the breach...
    First, on are solo waza effective: well, that depends on what you mean by "effective". Solo iai waza are very effective for what they're meant for: teaching you how to draw the sword quickly, footwork, how not to cut yourself with the sword, etc. But if you tried to get into a sword fight after only training solo waza, you'd most likely find that your distance and timing were off. For learning that, solo waza are obviously not effective.

    On the bigger subject of whether that makes MJER/MSR "effective" or not, that all depends on how much emphasis there is on doing just solo, or both. Of course, I can't compare how effect MJER/MSR are to other koryu overall, as I've barely been exposed to any. And, even if I had trained heavily in one, it's hard to compare effectiveness without actually trying out the techniques. I think it's safe to say the average koryu practitioner will be a better swordsperson than the average MJER/MSR person, but that has more to do with the nature of what it takes to learn a koryu (i.e., I can learn MJER by going a few blocks away, assuming I can ever get away from all of the studying I seem to have to do these days; in order to learn a koryu, I'd probably have to move to Japan, which would require a fundamental change in my lifestyle and thus a great deal more dedication than would be required for MJER). Whether or not *all* koryu practioners are better than *all* MJER/MSR practitioners is another question entirely; I'd venture to guess not, but obviously I can't do an empirical study on the matter. I'd like to think that if one really put one's mind to MJER/MSR, and really practiced not only the solo waza, but all of the paired waza as well, one would come up with something effective. But I doubt I'll ever have the opportunity to really intensely study both MJER and a koryu, so unfortunately I basically have to rely on the educated opinion of others.

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