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Thread: Meik's comments on solo waza training from Jo Forum

  1. #46
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    Default FWIW

    Ben,
    You raise some interesting points.

    I guess what I'm objecting to is the either/or, black/white portrayal of one art or another with vagueries and blanket generalizations. Just what qualifies one to make such statements? Let's go on record and see what the 'expert testimony' is with specifics, eh?

    And it really isn't that, from what I've seen.

    It really is in large part a factor of the head of the particular branch or dojo in question.

    Some iai dojos still emphasize the paired waza alot to be a major portion of the overall curriculum, as well as tameshigiri, as well as trying out the bunkai for the waza, as well as kaewaza to mix things up a bit, as well as 'drills' that are not part of any 'official' curriculum' but serve as a way to further familiarize the practitioner with facing a partner/opponent.

    I'm some place over on the side that says you need to do the paired stuff alot to understand the dynamics of facing an opponent - but I started late in this sword swinging stuff and I suck, so my opinion is worth squat.

    And now after I've put in my mat time, I'm thinking I shulda just kept my big yapper shut.

    Outta here,
    Erik

  2. #47
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    Originally posted by Ben Bartlett

    I think it's safe to say the average koryu practitioner will be a better swordsperson than the average MJER/MSR person, but that has more to do with the nature of what it takes to learn a koryu (i.e., I can learn MJER by going a few blocks away, assuming I can ever get away from all of the studying I seem to have to do these days; in order to learn a koryu, I'd probably have to move to Japan, which would require a fundamental change in my lifestyle and thus a great deal more dedication than would be required for MJER).
    Okay...I generally stay out of this one, because I am one of those "I could really care less what you think about the style I practice, because it you don't practice it your opinion does not really matter" kind of guys ....but.... Well Ben you hit on a point that I think does need to be addressed.

    MJER and MSR are KORYU. Not kind of koryu, not almost koryu, not even very similar to koryu. They ARE koryu. This is a point that does not need to be argued out, it is a fact.

    As to Meik's comments. Well quite frankly given the skills and level of understanding of the vast majority of people out there practicing/instructing MJER and MSR, I can see quite easily how he has formulated his opinions.

    That being said I don't think he meant MJER or MSR as koryu. I rather think he was reffering to IAI in general as it is practiced today. He perhaps could have have been a little more clear, but that does not appear to be Meik's style.
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  3. #48
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    Good post Paul - agreed.

    This is actually an interesting thread, from a psychological standpoint at least.
    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  4. #49
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    Charles,
    That’s me bud. Dependable. All the way!

    The reason that I decided to jump in and poor a little gas on the fire is for one simple reason. You don’t seem to get it!
    I was convinced that that you had grasped the understanding after that last Iai thread that everyone and their mother was involved in. I guess I was wrong.
    What you need to understand is that it doesn’t matter what Meik thinks about your art. It’s your art, not his. It doesn’t matter what myself or anybody else thinks about it or you. Yet, you let it matter and that is what turns people against you.
    You still have this desire to save Iai and convince everyone that what you guys do is the real deal. Who cares! Obviously you do and that’s why I call you “The Crusader”. Because you are on this never ending crusade to change what people think about what other people do. Particularly, MJER.
    I find it very odd after finally meeting your teacher and spending a little time with him while in Texas that all you have done is learn MJER from him. I would have thought that since he is never on the forums trying to defend what he is doing, you might have sat back and said” Hmm, maybe Ray sensei is so comfortable with what his art is that he has no need to care about what others say”. I know he reads the forums, but I have never seen him in any of these debates and that says a lot!

    I can’t remember who said it, but I’m sure that Meik was looking more to Iai as a whole rather than just MJER / MSR. Also, given the way that most Iai is practiced today, it makes a lot of sense as to how he describes it (Self-Masturbation). By the way, I really like this analogy. In many cases it is very true! Most of the people doing Iai are dancing and trying to be spiritual and all that. They read Musashi’s book and think that it is gospel and try to be this Zen, sword guy rather than just being themselves. No slight on Musashi by the way, but we don’t even know how much of the original book has made it through all of the translations over the course of time.
    Anyway, there are many of us that do both Sengoku and Edo period Koryu. At least for the people that I am directly associated with that frequent this board. From a training aspect, we do them because one might not encompass the other so it helps to round out the entire training regime rather than just doing kata in front of a mirror by one’s self. That has it’s place too, but that will never give you the sense of attacking or being attacked by another human being that wants to inflict pain on you with a weapon.
    I could go on and on, but to be honest it is nothing that hasn’t been said before.
    The sogo bugei had many things involved in their curriculum and added to the curriculums with time. However, most of the Edo period koryu have lost most of those curriculums due to the lack of fighting regardless of battlefield, street or castle.

    In any case. I do believe that Meik has earned the right to comment on almost any JSA that he sees as he has put his time in both in Japan and the U.S. He is a senior practitioner of Japanese Budo as are many others that frequent these forums. They have earned the right to assess where things are as they were the one’s that made it possible for the next generation (you and me) to do the same.

    Ryuso, Soke, Sensei, Sempai or Kohai. !!!! has always runs down hill and always will! My advice is to work your way through it so you can put a little on the next guy

    Oh, and as for the “Budo God” comment. I’m no God. Saint-an (Satan) maybe, but not a god.
    My friend Dave just became a minister and threatened to send me to heaven. I told him that one goes to heaven for the climate. You go to hell for the company. I told him I’d be downstairs of he needed me!



    BIG TONY
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    BIG TONY

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  5. #50
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    For the record, Ray-sensei does not post in these kinds of threads for the same reason he doesn't post in any other. Like too many others, he does not post at all anymore.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  6. #51
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    Originally posted by Scott Irey

    MJER and MSR are KORYU. Not kind of koryu, not almost koryu, not even very similar to koryu. They ARE koryu. This is a point that does not need to be argued out, it is a fact.
    Whoops! I actually wasn't trying to say they weren't. You can just replace "koryu" with "koryu other than MJER and MSR" in my comments, and you'll get the general idea of what I meant. My point was just that other styles are much harder to come by, and thus, if you go to the trouble it takes to find instruction, it's safe to say you're probably pretty dedicated.

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    Default Re: Dammit! I just can't help myself ...

    I'm sorry, but I am one that believes you are at fault. Not so much for being offended, you have every right to be offended if you so desire, but for whining so much about it. If your continued whining causes someone of Mr. Skoss' caliber to leave e-budo, then we have all lost out on a major source of highly researched information. If your being offended causes you to leave e-budo, we have all lost another mid-level practitioner's opinion. While I generally enjoy your opinions, the bald truth is someone of Mr. Skoss' caliber just gets more slack. Life ain't fair.
    Sorry Paul. Musta missed this post earlier. I think it's rather interesting that you refer to me as a mid-level practitioner. Perhaps in this country I am. I certainly would be considered a peon in Japan. I don't consider myself to be anything but a beginner really. There are still more than a few waza in the system that I have not done at all. I don't think mid-level really comes until you've gotten at least a decade or more of instruction from a quality instructor. That'll be a few more years yet for me.

    So you would argue that indeed, allowances must be made for offensive statements as long as it is a budo god that is making them. That somehow they are incalculably more valuable to the community than anyone else. You're not alone. Many others seem to agree with you.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  8. #53
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    It is apparently perfectly acceptable to come out and use extremely harsh language to denegrate and disparage the fundamental training techniques of other systems in a public forum as long as you are a budo god, or speaking on the behalf of one.
    Piss on Meik Skoss and all that koryu stuff he's into! He couldn't cut his way through rice paper with shinken.

    Sincerely,

    budo deity Charlie

    Okay, on a more serious note, I'll repeat that while I don't share your view, Charles, I am sympathetic. I think what this comes down to is you feel iai is combat effective and others don't, and that pisses you off. Fair enough. Fact is, me, Neil, David and all the kendo guys on this board would take care of all of you in nothing flat...



    But seriously. I respect your views, and I urge you to take a "f--- 'em if they can't take a joke" attitude toward this kind of dialogue. As far as I can tell (will check other thread), this mostly happens on the net, where it's easy to blow things out of proportion, you know?
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  9. #54
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    Well Charlie. Bring it

    But back to that serious note of yours. This thread was never meant to be exclusive to Iai. It was intended to focus on the dismissive and often outright offensive attitude so frequently expressed on this forum. This is just as true of Iai guys who dismiss kenjutsu, and Kendo guys who dismiss Iai as it is anything else.

    Your observation that this is the internet where things are easily blown out of proportion is certainly relevant to the topic. Pretty sure it's been brought up already. Should it be different? Should we expect folks to act differently online than they do in person, or should we hold them to the same standard of common courtesy in both arenas?

    Should pattently offensive language used online be easily forgotten or are they more indicative of a person's true views than what you would get in person?

    In my experience, people are exactly who they appear to be online, only toned down a bit, because it's harder to be rude in person.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  10. #55
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    I hear ya, Charles. Add to this the fact that you are a Texan. It's been my limited experience that Texans don't take s---t if they can help it. *raises glass to Texas*

    In the old days we'd have just carved each other up by now. And that's a good point to remember: these debates have been going on for centuries. There was a Meiji-era e-budo, probably, a kiosk outside John Lindsey's tea house where men could post little notes that sometimes ended in an exchange of words and steel and blood. Here's one that reads "this new-fangled habit of wearing armor and fencing with sticks is unmanly." Here's another that says "I have achieved a new level of understanding through the practice of iaido and anyone who does not get it is just a simpleton." Here's another that says "Dan Harden is a wino and he smells like poop." Oh, wait *stuffs that one back in his pocket*

    What you're most worried about is newer initiates coming around and going "Iaido/Kendo? Oh, that ain't real." I have heard some of this myself and I cringe when I hear it. Best just to gently try to inform them so that they can have a better opinion.
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  11. #56
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    Originally posted by Charlie Kondek

    What you're most worried about is newer initiates coming around and going "Iaido/Kendo? Oh, that ain't real." I have heard some of this myself and I cringe when I hear it. Best just to gently try to inform them so that they can have a better opinion.
    Cringe??? You should rejoice. It means more time between you and your sensei as he/she won't be spending time with the dozen new folks that want to give it a try for a few months. And by "gently inform" I hope you really mean "brutally show"

    Regards,
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  12. #57
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    Question A question

    My, my, you folks have been busy on these last four pages. Due to a sick home computer, I am reduced to gleaning bits of time on the public library's computers--not conducive to reading all of your posts in detail. So please excuse me if this has been brought up before.

    I just do not see how ANYONE can claim to be able to judge to efficacy of current training--partner, solo, whatever--when the original standard is extinct. That is, the standard of people armed with live blades actually engaging one another on a regular basis. You can extrapolate and postulate all you want. Reality quite often runs roughshod through even the most well-formulated predictions.

    So, practice as you see fit, pay no attention to your naysayers, but do not be so quick to dismiss the practice of others--you have no real proof.

    Am I the only one who can see this?
    In Sangha,
    Dr. Diane Mirro

  13. #58
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    Default Re: A question

    Originally posted by Diane Mirro

    Am I the only one who can see this?
    Um....see what Diane? Have you been chewing on those mezcal beans again?
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  14. #59
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    Default Thanks alot

    Originally posted by Scott Irey
    Um....see what Diane? Have you been chewing on those mezcal beans again?
    Just what I need...comments from the peanut gallery...sigh...
    In Sangha,
    Dr. Diane Mirro

  15. #60
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    Default Short

    Originally posted by Diane Mirro
    Just what I need...comments from the peanut gallery...sigh...

    That would be the few peanuts short gallery...thank you very much.
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

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