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Thread: Meik's comments on solo waza training from Jo Forum

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Short

    Originally posted by Scott Irey
    That would be the few peanuts short gallery...thank you very much.
    Shesh! So I burst out laughing and now all the other library patrons are glaring at me...on top of that, I just know John Lindsey is gonna scold us for getting off topic...it's fun to be 12 again...
    In Sangha,
    Dr. Diane Mirro

  2. #62
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    Talking Yup! ...

    So, practice as you see fit, pay no attention to your naysayers, but do not be so quick to dismiss the practice of others--you have no real proof.
    Exactly what I've been trying to say. Thanks Diane!
    Cringe??? You should rejoice. It means more time between you and your sensei as he/she won't be spending time with the dozen new folks that want to give it a try for a few months.
    That's the truth Scott! When we were affiliated with the local Parks and Rec. Dept. we had to accept anyone that wanted to sign up with them. You wouldn't believe how many people came in and complained that we weren't teaching them right and why does it take so long.
    I think it's rather interesting that you refer to me as a mid-level practitioner. Perhaps in this country I am. I certainly would be considered a peon in Japan. I don't consider myself to be anything but a beginner really. There are still more than a few waza in the system that I have not done at all. I don't think mid-level really comes until you've gotten at least a decade or more of instruction from a quality instructor. That'll be a few more years yet for me.
    That is precisely the point that I was trying to make. There are not that many practitioners in the U.S. that have spent the time, both here and in Japan, or have expended the energy to research and examine the Japanese koryu. I specifically said that I don't consider anyone a "budo god". My God does not do budo, and I find it offensive that you continually equate a budo practitioner to God. Consider it from an educational standpoint. There are tenured professors at all universities that are obnoxious. Anyone that has had higher education has encountered them. You still learn a lot from their class though as they have accumulated an incredible amount of knowledge on their subject. The few experienced budoka in the U.S. are very much like that, except that they don't have tenure, don't get paid, and aren't required to share their knowledge. They share what they have learned for their own reasons and, whatever those reasons happen to be, I am happy to learn whatever I can.

    Just because they express an opinion that is different from mine, it doesn't make me less of a person. I figure that they are entitled to their opinions, and most budoka that I've ever met have not been what you could call "pillars of polital correctness". I try to learn what I can, and ignore the rest. In the final analysis it's true. Those that have already paid their dues just get cut more slack.

    My opinions only, others may vary.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  3. #63
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    Excellent point, Mirro-san! Really, what this thread is about is:

    "People from other styles talk s--t about my style, and I for one am tired of it."

    To which, I like I said, I am sympathetic, but also feel it's as old as the hills.
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  4. #64
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    Actually if you will read the first post, what this thread is about is more general than the specific example provided. It sites a few other scenarios for discussion and was really about disparaging other styles in general. At least, that's what it was supposed to be about.

    As I mentioned several posts back, the thread got hijacked to be about the specific example mentioned and whether or not Mr. Skoss was correct in his assesment of those who spend a majority of their time doing solo waza.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  5. #65
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    Question I thought I addressed that ...

    Hi Charles,
    I thought that your original question was what I was specifically addressing? Your original statement was ... Is it ok for me to ... followed by several potentially disparaging remarks about other general types of schools.
    My replies have been along the lines of ... No, you don't have enough experience or knowledge yet ...

    In reading back through the thread though, I can see your point. A great many of the posts were related to the validity of Mr. Skoss' opinion rather than whether it was proper for him to express it so bluntly.
    I think that it's fairly easy to infer what the general opinion of most of the participants has been though.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  6. #66
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    Well, Meik (and many others) have had some interesting comments about weapons in aikido as well. In spite of the initial reaction of 'not MY aiki-weapons', time in the arts has shown me that they are pretty much correct. Many in aikido were not very happy with the message, the messenger, or the form. But I suspect that no matter how politely that message is delivered, it would still not be well-recieved. And I do think your post was as much about the manner as the content.

    If the medicine is going to taste bad one way or the other, why not just hold your nose and swallow?

    Ron (I too think Meik and certain others have earned the right to be wascally wabbits)

  7. #67
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    I agree. It seems pretty clear. The general consensus seems to be that if you have enough experience you get to be as rude as you like and most will defend you, but if you do not have decades under your belt, you are not allowed to express any form of indignation only acquiesence.

    Should this be the norm for inter-style relations in person as well?

    A more interesting question is, experience in what? Am I allowed to respond to a 20 year Jukokai guy that starts disparaging MJER?

    Would Mr. Skoss be allowed to respond to a 4 decade Karate guy if he started trashing jo? Where are the boundaries for this standard of behavior you are proposing?
    Last edited by Charles Mahan; 8th October 2003 at 18:50.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  8. #68
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    Default upon closer examination

    Well I decided to take a closer, albeit more serious, look at this thread. So I went over and read Meik's original post before re-reading what hs been posted. It seems to me that the folks who should be most upset with Meik(if indeed anybody should be upset) are the folks who practice a lot of seitei iai, or perhaps the folks who practice iai styles that do not incorporate two person practice.

    I can see his last paragraph being somewhat offensive to folks if it is taken out of context...heck I guess it can be seen as somewhat offensive even if it is not taken out of context.

    Does it offend me? No. Do I agree with it? Not completely...but maybe let's say...oh...about 98% of it I agree with.

    Will I voice that opinion? No...oops...too late, I already did.

    Could Meik have worded it in a way that some might find less offensive? Probably, but that does not really seem to be Meik's style.

    Is it okay to voice (write) such opinions when refering to another style or art? I guess that is the big question, and this is my take on it.

    What we practice is not nice and friendly by nature. It is in fact rather mean spirited and antagonistic at it's most basic level. Regardless of your intent, you are learning techniques that are "intended" to first maim and then kill another human being...nothing about that is nice and friendly. Furthermore most of the waza and kata ususally do not present conflict in a fair fight situation...it always seems to me that aite commits to an attack that a swordsman worth his/her salt, would not under any cicumstances commit to...thus the "goodguy" takes advantage of aite's lack of skill and capitalizes on it, leaving aite as a bloody quivering mass of moronic, swordsperson, crow-bait. With all that taken into account, I can see were one may perhaps...just perhaps, think it is alright and even acceptable to make such inflammatory statements.

    On the other hand perhaps it would be wise to clarify that ones opinions are based on observations rather than on practical experience and in depth in-school knowledge of the art one is commenting on.

    Just some thougts from the few peanuts short gallery.
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  9. #69
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    "MSR and MJER are koryu" (stated by Scott Irey earlier in the thread)

    Isn't this a contested statement? They are koryu in the sense of having their origin far back in time, but the counter argument is usually that they have been modernized so much as to be more akin to gendai budo arts, right?

    Another thing to consider, is that the sets two person kata in MSR and MJER are not practised very much by Western practitioners (to my knowledge). Personally, I think that's a pity, and I wonder what the reasons could be. In my humble opinion, we iaidoka *do* spend too much time playing with ourselves! Since it may very well be 10 years before I get to learn the tachi-uchi no kurai kata, I have taken up jodo to "get laid" instead of just "masturbating"...

    PS: Charles, would it offend you terribly if I dub this thread "Mahan's Mayhem"?
    Aage Bakken

    Ki is like duct tape, it has a light side and a dark side, and it holds the universe together. [yoj]

  10. #70
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    Only a relatively small group of individuals inside and outside of Japan seriously contest whether or not MSR and MJER are koryu. They are certainly not small family run affairs, but Tosa iai never really was from my understanding.

    Originally posted by A. Bakken
    Another thing to consider, is that the sets two person kata in MSR and MJER are not practised very much by Western practitioners (to my knowledge). Personally, I think that's a pity, and I wonder what the reasons could be. In my humble opinion, we iaidoka *do* spend too much time playing with ourselves! Since it may very well be 10 years before I get to learn the tachi-uchi no kurai kata, I have taken up jodo to "get laid" instead of just "masturbating"...

    PS: Charles, would it offend you terribly if I dub this thread "Mahan's Mayhem"?
    I cannot speak to MSR or, even MJER outside of the Seitokai/ZNIR group, but the two person waza are indeed practiced in the US, although not by everyone. Why? The answer is simple. It isn't a beginning level set of techniques.

    As for Mahan's Mayhem, by all means. This thread has really sparked a lot of things within this community. Perhaps some good will come of it yet.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  11. #71
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    Default

    Originally posted by A. Bakken
    "MSR and MJER are koryu" (stated by Scott Irey earlier in the thread)

    Isn't this a contested statement? They are koryu in the sense of having their origin far back in time, but the counter argument is usually that they have been modernized so much as to be more akin to gendai budo arts, right?
    Contested by whom? Certainly not by anybody of note who practices either style. The late !!!ui Torao (the recognized 21st head of the style) was very fond of pointing out that MJER was recognized as the verifiably second oldest koryu being practiced in Japan (before somebody jumps in on that, YES there are plenty of styles that probably are older, but they do not have verifiable, ie written, records to prove their age)

    Depending on the line being studied some have been modernized to a great extent others have not. Also the curriculum is no longer as extensive as it once was and this again depends on the line being studied. That being stated, for the most part the fundementals (kihon) have not been changed. If the kihon are preserved the style is preserved.

    Originally posted by A. Bakken
    Another thing to consider, is that the sets two person kata in MSR and MJER are not practised very much by Western practitioners (to my knowledge). Personally, I think that's a pity, and I wonder what the reasons could be.
    Indeed they are not practiced much by folks in the West. In fact a lot of folks in Japan do not practice them much either. There is a very good, very sound reason for this. Ask your instructor if you need to know why.



    Originally posted by A. Bakken
    In my humble opinion, we iaidoka *do* spend too much time playing with ourselves! Since it may very well be 10 years before I get to learn the tachi-uchi no kurai kata, I have taken up jodo to "get laid" instead of just "masturbating"...
    Some things are worth waiting for... somethings you have to wait for and you may never get if you trade your patiance for prostitutional services. Just a thought.

    Regards
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  12. #72
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    John...anyway to fix the f u k thing. please look at the following list:

    !!!urin
    !!!ui
    !!!uro
    !!!ai
    !!!aku
    !!!ano
    !!!etc...

    kind of annoying...but probably unfixable
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  13. #73
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    Talking Re: Dammit! I just can't help myself ...

    Originally posted by pgsmith
    First, in answer to David Pan ...
    Because someone of more experience is not my priest, or my God. Therefore, I don't hold them to any higher standard.
    If you believe that practicing a martial art will make you a better person, you would naturally expect more from a senior practitioner.

    In a similar vein, I simply do not expect my professor to use words like "SH*T" or "FU*K" in class.

    It has NOTHING to do with worshipping one's teacher. It has to do with simply expecting a RESULT from repeated attempts to better oneself at SOMETHING.

    Don't get me wrong. I have a lot of respect for Mr. Skoss. That doesn't mean I have to agree with everything he says OR the way he says it. Nor does my objection to his presentation of his knowledge keeps me from learning from what he is saying. Heck, if I can even learn from the words of Dan Harden, it's like anyone else will offend me huh?

    On that note, I will say this. If I can't respect the guy who is trying to teach me, it matters very little to me that he can offer me the world.
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

  14. #74
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    Talking Corollary

    Originally posted by DCPan
    On that note, I will say this. If I can't respect the guy who is trying to teach me, it matters very little to me that he can offer me the world.
    The corollary to that is this:

    If Mr. Skoss is that kind of person I think he is and the kind of person you've all described him to be, I would think he'd have more respect for someone who will be honest with him rather than someone who pretends everything is OK because they want a piece of his knowledge.

    I've not seen any instructor worth his salt that have students/colleagues without backbones....

    Regards...
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

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    Talking California Recall

    Originally posted by Charles Mahan
    All I am guilty of is trying to increase the amount of inter-style tolerance.
    About the only thing I gained from the California Recall Debate is this...said by one candidate. I have to paraphrase the gist of it as I saw the debate while vacationing in Cancun...lots of distractions....

    "No equality in history has ever been achieve by 'tolerance'. Equity is achieve by accepting one another, not tolerating one another".

    I'd rather see practitioners ACCEPT the arts for what they are rather than tolerate them for what they ARE NOT.

    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

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