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Thread: Is “gi” a correct word?

  1. #1
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    Default Is “gi” a correct word?

    As anyone who has been on e-Budo.com for more than a few days knows, any time someone uses the word “gi,” Mr. Tony Kehoe -– a self-described “grammar nazi” -- is likely to butt in and post a message saying that “gi” is not a correct word. “It’s ‘dogi’” he’ll say, “not ‘gi.’”

    No matter how many times someone points out that this is an English-language board, and that “gi” is accepted into the English language, Mr. Kehoe will rant and rave.

    Although I prefer to use more specific terms like “dogi,” “keikogi,” “uwagi,” etc., sometimes I just use the generic “gi” in general conversation.

    Recently Mr. Kehoe posted a message telling me that since he had “already told [me] what the correct word was” (emphasis added), that I was being “perverse” by continuing to use the word “gi.”

    Enough is enough. The next time Mr. Tony “the Grammar Nazi” Kehoe -- or anyone else -- says that “gi” is not a word, you can direct him to the post below. If he still insists on “correcting” people after that, then we will all know who is or is not “perverse.”
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  2. #2
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    Default Yes, Virginia. There really is a gi.

    As any Scrabble© player knows, when the validity of a word or a word’s proper usage occurs, the proof is to look it up in a dictionary.

    Here I present an excerpt from Webster’s Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, © 1996, based on the 2nd Edition of the Random House Dictionary of the English Language.

    This excerpt includes the pronunciation; part of speech; definition; alternate, less-common, spelling; date of adoption into the lexicon; and origin. In short, the complete etymology of the word.

    gi (gê), n. a lightweight, two-piece, usually white garment worn by barefooted martial-arts participants, consisting of loose-fitting pants and a wrap-around jacket with cloth belt. Also gie. [1970 – 75; shortening of Japn jûdô-gi jujutsu garb, equiv. to jûdô JUDO + -gi, comb. form of ki to wear]
    Now, while I might quibble over the exact definition (only “barefooted martial artists” wear them?), there is no argument that -- since it has been in use in English at least since 1970, and since it is in common usage, and since it is in the dictionary --

    “gi” is, in fact, a perfectly good and proper word.

    If you don’t like it, don’t use it. If you don’t like others’ use of it, suffer.

    If you still don’t like it, take it up with Merriam Webster, because frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn!
    Last edited by Brian Owens; 8th October 2003 at 05:59.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  3. #3
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default

    T&he argument posted above is flawed from the outset, because it assumes that "gi" is an English word. It is not. Anyway unfamilair with the threads here, if pressed, will answer that it is the Japanese word for "uniform". This misapprehension is further bourne out by the fact that when the word "gi" appears in print, it is usually italicised to denote that it is a foreign word (in this case, Japanese). As I have indicated, however, it is not a Japanese word. No one on e-budo is unaware of this fact, so misuse of the term deliberately is indeed perverse. It is akin to knowing that one should stop the car at the red light but choosing to barrell across anyway, because if there are no visible oncoming cars, it can't matter, right? Unfortunately, as the goal of budo is education, false teachings undermine the very raison d'être of budo.
    Further, to be consistent, if you are going to reject the correct Japanese term "dogi", then you must also reject all other Japanese terminology. From now on, I expect C. Owens to refer to "empty hand" instead of Karate, and "Way of spiritual harmony" instead of Aikido. Failure to do so would be hypocritical.
    But then, being a hypocrite is no worse than being perverse, I suppose...

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    Originally posted by Kimpatsu
    T&he argument posted above is flawed from the outset, because it assumes that "gi" is an English word. It is not.
    Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
    Here I present an excerpt from Webster’s Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, © 1996, based on the 2nd Edition of the Random House Dictionary of the English Language.
    Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
    ...since it has been in use in English at least since 1970, and since it is in common usage, and since it is in the dictionary...
    Last edited by Brian Owens; 8th October 2003 at 06:19.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  5. #5
    Kimpatsu Guest

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    It is still not English. I keep telling you this. The OED even mistakenly defines the word as Japanese. This is because the lexicographers are not Japanese speakers. So, you are still wrong, and still being perverse. Use "karate" or "Aikido", and you're being hypocritical as well.

  6. #6
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    Default On the other hand ...

    So Tony,
    Does that mean that every time you are in a bar, you argue with the other patrons that it's BEER, not BIRU. Biru is not a word. The real word is beer. Of course, since the word beer has been subsumed into the Japanese language, it is now correct usage for them to say biru. By that same token, since gi has been subsumed into the english lexicon (see the excerpt from Webster's above) it has to be acknowledged that gi would be correct for American karate practitioners. Personally, I feel that if you are practicing a Japanese art, dogi or keikogi or uwagi should be used along with the rest of the dojo Japanese in use. Doesn't make it incorrect,it's just how I think it should be.

    Cheers,
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  7. #7
    n2shotokai Guest

    Talking

    Tony is not perverse he’s retentive

    Steve Beale

  8. #8
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default Re: On the other hand ...

    Originally posted by pgsmith
    So Tony,
    Does that mean that every time you are in a bar, you argue with the other patrons that it's BEER, not BIRU. Biru is not a word. The real word is beer. Of course, since the word beer has been subsumed into the Japanese language, it is now correct usage for them to say biru. By that same token, since gi has been subsumed into the english lexicon (see the excerpt from Webster's above) it has to be acknowledged that gi would be correct for American karate practitioners. Personally, I feel that if you are practicing a Japanese art, dogi or keikogi or uwagi should be used along with the rest of the dojo Japanese in use. Doesn't make it incorrect,it's just how I think it should be. ,
    I don't believe this. Are you really that stupid, or are you just being perverse? The difference is that the Japanese know "biru" is derived from "beer". The only reason you know that "gi" is not a Japanese word is because I told you. Until then, you believed that the word was Japanese, right? Just like "karate", "aikido", etc. But it isn't, for reasons I have explained before. Consequenlty, your attempt at comparison is fundamentally flawed.

  9. #9
    n2shotokai Guest

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    In 30 years, I have never heard it referred to anything other than "gi" with the exception of discussions on the net such as these. It may not be proper Japanese, but after 30 years it is just as proper as "Brits" living in Japan. To continually make a issue of it is just plain retentive.

    Steve Beale

  10. #10
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by n2shotokai
    In 30 years, I have never heard it referred to anything other than "gi" with the exception of discussions on the net such as these. It may not be proper Japanese, but after 30 years it is just as proper as "Brits" living in Japan. To continually make a issue of it is just plain retentive.
    30 years and you still don't speak Japanese?
    You must be a really slow learner...

  11. #11
    n2shotokai Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by Kimpatsu
    30 years and you still don't speak Japanese?
    You must be a really slow learner...
    Ad hominem, avoided the point.

    I am an American living in the USA (best country in the world) practising martial arts where I utilize "some" Japanese terminology. My primary objective is to communicate effectively which I do in English. When I tell some one to straighten up their unform it is a "gi" or pajamas. The students understand this!

    And yes, I am a slow learner. I like doing things over and over and over ............ and once I learn something it is usually forever.

    Steve Beale

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    Default

    Dear (un)God, not again...

    at least our pointless rambling debates about the nature of the universe are... no... wait... they're just as stupid.

    ...what is that emote supposed to be?
    Iain Richardson, compulsive post-having cake eater-wanter.

    "He shoots first who laughs last."
    - Alexsandr Lebed,

  13. #13
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by n2shotokai
    Ad hominem, avoided the point.
    Hey, YOU're the one who called ME "anal"...
    Originally posted by n2shotokai
    I am an American living in the USA (best country in the world) practising martial arts where I utilize "some" Japanese terminology. My primary objective is to communicate effectively which I do in English. When I tell some one to straighten up their unform it is a "gi" or pajamas. The students understand this!
    Just because they understand it doesn't make it right. Teach them the correct terminology, and they'll understand that too. particularly if you explain WHY "gi" is wrong.
    Many years ago, when I was captain of Brixton Shorinji kempo dojo, there was a school of karate with which we shared the same facilities. Their branch master spoke no Japanese, and when attempting to count to ten in Japanese, after six he became hopelessly manganled, using made-up and non-existent words. His students understood him perfectly, but that doesn't mean he was counting correctly.
    Same thing.
    Originally posted by n2shotokai
    And yes, I am a slow learner. I like doing things over and over and over ............ and once I learn something it is usually forever.
    So you haven't been exposed to "dogi" enough yet? Hence my need to repeat it, and repeat it, and repeat it.... I'm striving for critical mass here. Once everybody on e-budo starts using the correct Japanese, it will filter through all the Shorinji Kenshi who drop by casually to read the pages, and then none of them at all will make the mistake, and I'll stop being bollocked all the time.
    Which will make a change...

  14. #14
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    Smile

    Hey guys,

    I have a feeling that it's my fault this argument got started. I'm really sorry I put the idea in my post, if that's where the idea came from.

    Look, you both make valid points. It IS in the Scrabble dictionary, and in other English dictionaries, as well, like Brian-san says. But you Tony-san, are also correct, because of how you explained to me about the character, and what it becomes when it is by itself.

    So... it became at the same time, an English word, because people somehow, got the impression that Gi meant uniform. This, I bet, was probably because some native English speaker had used the word dogi, got tired of saying the entire word and one day shortened it and used it among friends, and it probably just happened to snowball from there, a total accident.

    Brian-san, he wasn't calling you perverse. It was a general statement, and he was talking to me anyway.

    And, so now I saw the next new posts. Please... just stop insulting each other. This is my fault, and I'm very sorry about it.

    Both of you are right. Can you guys stop this bickering and stop picking on each other please? Now I understand why it wasn't a good idea to ask my question.

    Carolyn Hall

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    Default

    Originally posted by Kaoru
    I have a feeling that it's my fault this argument got started. I'm really sorry I put the idea in my post, if that's where the idea came from.

    Now I understand why it wasn't a good idea to ask my question.
    Oh, this has been an issue for far longer than your question.

    And, in another thread, he specifically asked me "Why are you being so perverse." So please don't put a guilt trip on yourself.

    Don't be afraid to ask questions, just stand back when the "answers" get out of hand.
    Last edited by Brian Owens; 8th October 2003 at 07:32.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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