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Thread: Commercial budo – Martial snobbery

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    Default Commercial budo – Martial snobbery

    Commercial budo – Martial snobbery

    I admit it… I want to earn a living teaching martial arts. To many people in the martial arts circles I will now be branded as something quite close to the devil. Ever since I became aware of e-budo and started posting here I’ve seen quite a number people rant about ‘commercial ‘ teachers. Some almost go as far as to mention that if you make a living teaching MA you are evil itself.

    Why should we not make a living teaching? Look around you, nearly everything that someone else does for you or teaches, you will need to pay. Face it; we live in a time where in most cases time equals money. We spend years and years learning our arts and in most cases when we start teaching we will continue to learn. Some of us spend money going to seminars and courses, yet try to make a living or even break-even with the costs you make……. Evil evil evil…

    Now lots of people will start to say that you can’t compare MA to normal work. We do MA to learn self-defence, gain spiritual enlightenment and other reason. But thou shalt not make money teaching!

    Why should we not compare teaching martial arts to normal work? If you compare the time we spent training and learning to the time people spent learning for their A-levels (just an example). People put lots of time in the study for their A-levels yet about 90% of these people will never put in as much time as we put in our studies of the martial arts we study. When people do finally pass the exams for their A-levels they will start earning quite a decent living (okay that may be an understatement).

    So let’s examine what we do:

    1. spend lots of time training and studying our art
    2. over the years spend quite a big amount of money on our studies
    3. end up spending lots of time teaching others

    And for this we should not make a decent living, if not decent even get rich?

    Now the first of you who are going to reply to this are going to state that they don’t mind people earning a living with their art, as long as you don’t sell out.

    Let’s take a look at the selling out. Billy Blanks is a sell-out, at least that what I hear lots of people say. He created the great thing that is Tae-bo. Why is he selling out, is he selling out at all? From what I’ve seen and heard the only thing he is promoting is something that is fun to do and will get you, and keep you fit. As far as I know he hasn’t claimed that Tae-bo will teach you an ancient martial art or will make you good enough to defend yourself on the streets.

    Selling out? No he combined his knowledge and his feel for marketing and created a product that earned him lots of money. Good for him.

    The thing that I am wary of is the people who teach, but actually shouldn’t. These people teach the ancient art of !!!!!!ido. Well known by most of the martial art practitioners these people do not make money teaching the art, they make money (and lots of it) by teaching something that sells and they call it martial arts. Yes these people are bad.

    Go rant about these people (we do these lots of times in Baffling/Bad budo) but please do not compare these charlatans with honest teachers you are teaching out of love for what they do. These true teachers should be allowed to make money and even become rich if they are able too.

    So in the end I dare to call anyone a snob, if he without exception says that people earning money in the arts are evil incarnate.
    Rogier van der Peijl

    REAL SCOTSMEN WEAR KILTS because sheep can hear a zipper at 500 yards!

    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Ah, what a cutie, Rogier. I'll bet a lot of ladies in Netherlands are mourning because you are out of circulation now!

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    Nothing wrong with making money by teaching. But there are sooooo many people who love to teach even they don't get enough money because the love doing martial arts. I've seen similar thing in music industry. In industry like that, you have to be really really good (not just as a martial artsist but also as a teacher as well as businessman) or you have to do something really really dodgey to make living out of it.
    -Youji Hajime.

    Engrish does not mine strong point

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    I should add that in music as in martial arts, being good at it often got nothing to do with how successful you are in financial term. Here is an example.

    http://www.allaboutjazz.com/articles/arti0900_03.htm

    So, basically, if you get into business of martial arts, you have to divert yourself to aspect which has little to do with your arts. I'm not saying you can't do/teach good stuff and still make money but often, you can make more money by doing crappy stuff.
    -Youji Hajime.

    Engrish does not mine strong point

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    Rogier,

    I see nothing wrong with teaching MA for money in principle - the problem comes when the martial-businessman starts teaching bad technique dressed up as good technique to get more students through the door.

    Every advert I read for a commercial MA school includes the phrase 'self defence' somewhere in the blurb and 99.9% of these schools do not teach anything like a SD technique in their syllabus, though you would not believe this if you listened to the instructions given in a class. That is not to say that the teacher is incapable of defending him or herself or even of teaching other people these skills it is just that he/she doesn't teach them.

    As a business person you are going to have to get lots of bodies through your door as you are inevitably going to have a pretty high turn-over of people in the first year or two of their training. You will have to work out some way of keeping your existing clients ('clinets', not 'students') as well as attracting new ones and this may involve giving them what they want to have (rapid promotion, easy sense of achievement, flashy tecnhiques, etc.) rather than what the should get (good quality teaching, promotion on merit, solid & reliable techniques, etc.). Can you do this and stay honest or do you inevitably become another mcdojo?

    As a business person you will realise that a lot of companies fail in their first year in business and you have to have a product people want to buy. This is why so many commercial schools change 'art', allegiance and style when the latest art to become fashionable comes along. Again, it is not necessarily to say that the instructor is not capable but just that they are not selling what they say they are. This is fraud, but it is also facing the reality of keeping your business alive. If you want to keep 'pure' to your art you will have to resign yourself to being poor unless you become one of the few martial artists who make it to the top of the 'profession' and attract students from all over the world to train with them.

    Good luck to you in your ambition to make a living doing what you want to do, I wish I could do the same! But please bear in mind the business aspect of what you want to do rather than just concentrating on the MA side.

    On the subject of Billy Banks: How can he have sold out unless he markets Taebo as something other than a aerobic workout based on MA techniques? Other people certainly to market their Taebo classes on the basis of 'learning SD' and so they are committing fraud...
    Hugh Wallace

    A humble wiseman once said, "Those who learn by the inch and talk by the yard should be kicked by the foot."

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    Good luck to you in your ambition to make a living doing what you want to do, I wish I could do the same! But please bear in mind the business aspect of what you want to do rather than just concentrating on the MA side.
    that's the main reason why I'm doing my A-levels in Business Administration.

    It's unbelievable how many people start school while they have absolutely no idea how a business should be run and handled
    Rogier van der Peijl

    REAL SCOTSMEN WEAR KILTS because sheep can hear a zipper at 500 yards!

    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Ah, what a cutie, Rogier. I'll bet a lot of ladies in Netherlands are mourning because you are out of circulation now!

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    It's sort of reverse logic after I took shot at teaching martial arts for business but to teach good stuff for money, you really have to be a good business man, IMO. If you are a good businessman, your margin of profit give you enough breathing space to teach real stuff. If you are not good businessmen, you might degenerate into never ending road of McDojo. I have so far seen two schools which is running successfuly as business at the same time producing large number of good practioners.
    -Youji Hajime.

    Engrish does not mine strong point

  7. #7
    bruceb Guest

    Default Be careful ...

    Originally posted by Rogier
    that's the main reason why I'm doing my A-levels in Business Administration.

    It's unbelievable how many people start school while they have absolutely no idea how a business should be run and handled
    Rogier,

    Be careful, because many businesses who follow the model of what is taught in business schools or colleges ... Fail.

    Why?

    Because they do not market a product that changes with the needs of the people requesting that product.

    Over the years I have met some successful business men/ women who had a couple of years of great success, only to be followed by bankruptcy. Either their products did not change with the needs or wants of the public, or the manner in which the public percieved their services and the value of those services changed because a number of reasons, sometimes the main reason being they lost that personal touch and ran their business strickly like a business.

    Martial arts is a tough gig. Many people eventually run it as a second job or for a small profit. Very few couples stay together into their middle age or older years because of the strains upon each person and their relationship from running this type of business. Please realize that when you teach martial arts you are accepting a responsibility which is simular to a pastor, priest, or other religious related professional. As much as you distance yourself from the business, people recognize you and see you differently than they would a normal citizen.

    Despite what everyone tells you, once you become sensei, or teacher, it follows you the rest of your life. Children grow up, people grow old, and friends drift apart, but just as we expect people who become religious professionals to be the moral barometer of our society, so too a sensei and his/her teachings is another barometer to many people.

    I don't think it should be the idol worship, or the person being put on a pedistal, but for some people, it is.

    My point.

    Adaption, change, personable behavior, providing services that improve and change with time. All the supports of business can be in place, but if there are not people seeking or finding your service you ain't gonna be around for very long.

    One of the great boons to business is being able to ride out the bad times, or economic lows, because of the common sense that keeps your business fluid. That is ... knowing when to allow for growth, but not allowing that growth to consume you. Maybe because I have worked in a volitile and changing world of Boats/ marine industrys I have seen and worked for a variety of employers, businesses, most of which have come and gone as owners grow old and retire, or sell their property over time, or just plain go bankrupt and fade away.

    The martial arts business is even more volitile than the boat business. It depends upon the consumer having discretionary income to support said endeavor. Eventually, from what I have seen, contracts and payments for quarterly, by-yearly, or yearly seem to evolve ... especially if the overhead of the business demands it, I really don't like to see that happen, but it does.

    Oh well ... you are A line business courses ... they should have covered all this already in class.

    Just remember that the personal touch, the generousity of teaching techniques is another means to endear the students to the teacher. I know I have blown off some teachers because they think they can teach ONE TECHNIQUE without showing the variations and connections to other techniques. They run their martial arts as a business that goes so slow, one cannot help but feel like they are being fleeced for their money? Don't let that happen to you.

    Good students will learn and return to you tenfold the things you teach to them.

    That is all I really wanted to say. Don't be stingy with what you teach.

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    Be careful, because many businesses who follow the model of what is taught in business schools or colleges ... Fail
    that is so true. But it does provide a good basis to start from. There are some very good ideas even though most of the times basic and outdated.

    It has given me lots of ideas how to do marketing, what not to do and the right way to (for instance) apply for a bank loan.

    Education is usefull but common sense is always needed
    Rogier van der Peijl

    REAL SCOTSMEN WEAR KILTS because sheep can hear a zipper at 500 yards!

    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Ah, what a cutie, Rogier. I'll bet a lot of ladies in Netherlands are mourning because you are out of circulation now!

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    To be honest, it's bit sneaky but attend different martial arts schools which are running successfully to learn what they are doing it right.
    -Youji Hajime.

    Engrish does not mine strong point

  10. #10
    bruceb Guest

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    Originally posted by Rogier
    that is so true. But it does provide a good basis to start from. There are some very good ideas even though most of the times basic and outdated.

    It has given me lots of ideas how to do marketing, what not to do and the right way to (for instance) apply for a bank loan.

    Education is usefull but common sense is always needed
    You got it ....

    The only other thing is to let the business support itself. That is .. the members want the club or the dojo. The teacher becomes an employee of the dojo.

    So long as you can support yourself, or have an income that does not depend upon the dojo, as least in the early years or growth, you should do just fine.

    Good luck Rogier.

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    My shihan is the head of goju kai (yamaguchi organization) of Victoria, Australia. And he's the second man of the org. in Australia. However, the dojo that we used is church hall and he charge only $60 per month which I consider cheaper comparing other dojo or organization. No commercial leafleet or promotion sort of thing. The students are only fifth dan, two second dan, one green junior (his son), one yellow (his son's student mate) and two white (including me). And casual students are two 4th dan (other dojo's teacher) and one blue (from other dojo). Here is the example that full dedication of MA teacher I have ever had.

    I don't mind the making money in MA lecturing. Because there are aspects such renting and maintenance of the dojo that has to be paid. But as long as the teacher maintain the quality then why not!! MA is usually secondary skill for people recently. On the other side, making more money may encourage people to learn and dedicated in MA.

    Put it like this. Qualit first then facility and at the end is money. It's not like selling burger or open another business enterprise. We might make better burger than Mc donalds but can't sell it better. MA is not a burger but it's a skill which will be taught generation to generation.
    Umar Sesko A. Tri Hananto
    "high quality single man"
    "low profile but high product"

  12. #12
    Marc Renouf Guest

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    I don't have any problem with people making money at teaching martial arts. But when you talk about "making a living" teaching martial arts, I start to get wary.

    A lot of it depends on the type of martial arts that you're instructing. In some senses, I can see a top ranked Judo or TKD instructor making a living by teaching their art - not as an instructor per se, but more as a coach, giving instruction to high-level competitiors.

    But in order to pay the bills and make a living, you've got to either a) get a lot of students, or b) charge a lot of money. Nobody likes to pay massive whacks of cash for something, so most instructors are left trying to attract a large number of students. In order to do this, you have to give them not what you think they need, but what they want. For the most part, people want to feel good about themselves. It takes a rare individual to want to have pain inflicted upon him or herself. It takes a rare individual to want to put in the time, effort, and dedication to really improve. It takes a rare individual to want the instructor to hammer them over and over until they get it right.

    Most people want to come in twice a week, work up a light sweat, drop their $50 a month, and get their black belt in two years - at which point they'll have an accomplishment that they can brag to their friends about, at which point they'll stop coming to your dojo. And to keep them coming back (until they reach their black belt) that's exactly what you'll have to give them - a light workout, easy, regular promotion, and positive feedback. Remember that you're not just trying to pay rent for dojo space (which is hard enough as it is), you're trying to pay your own rent, car payment, health insurance, etc. Because you're trying to "make a living."

    I also worry about the type of instructor that doesn't have a day job. Retirees are okay, they've put in their time. But if you're 35 and martial arts is your life (and has been for the last decade), I wonder about your ablity to relate well to other human beings and put your training in perspective in a non-combative environment. I've always understood it to be that budo is supposed to balance your life, not determine it. Maybe that's just me and what I've been taught, but it seems reasonable.

    I have much more respect for an instructor who has a day job, makes a decent living at it, and still gives up his or her free time to train a fumbling clumsy oaf like me. And yes, they should be compensated for that sacrifice, but the difference is that they don't need it. Because of that, their standards will be higher, and they will be more able to teach the way they want to rather than the way that will keep the bills paid.

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    Of primary importance in the integrity of the sensei who is the owner/operator of the dojo. As long as you maintain high standards and don't run the place into a black belt mill that produces 1-year wonders I don't think anybody has any objection.

    It is the 22 year old shodan/nidan who makes his living off of testing fees and selling patches for the uniforms that tick everybody off.

    Harvey Moul

    Fish and visitors stink after three days - Ben Franklin

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    I'd watch buisness school. Their conception of the perfect martial arts school is a McDojo. Minimum investment for high returns. Replacement of high-paid skilled workers with untrained low-paid manual labour wherever possible.

    The reason it's so hard to run a high quality dojo in a capitalist system is because ultimately the quality of the product doesn't figure into the market equation directly. If you can increase your profit margin by lying within the bounds of the law (ie without getting caught) do it. Lying to a customer so you can sell them a crappy product and make more money is a virtue. They'll call it 'productivity' or something like that, but they're almost as full of crap as the garbage they sell. Lying about what you're selling is the highest virtue asides from firing people to make more money. Entering into a buisness that deals with a product you care about from an asthetic and personal perspective is ill advised because ultimately the system requires you to cheapen it for profit.

    The only way around this is to network among people like yourself and try and build a social institution around your buisness so that people are drawn to it for reasons other than consumer values of cheaper and faster= better.
    Iain Richardson, compulsive post-having cake eater-wanter.

    "He shoots first who laughs last."
    - Alexsandr Lebed,

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    You don't know much about capitalism do you? Certainly nothing at all about how a production facility is run. I've got 20+ years experience in manufacturing/production/service and I can tell you right now that you are so wrong with your misconceptions that I barely know where to begin.

    What you have described is basically fraudulent and is NOT the thought process of a successfull capitalist or entrepeneur. Your sloppy, evil characterizations of businessmen is both ludicrous and slanderous. Again, I am reminded of a year ago when you described anyone who owned and rented property as greedy, evil and "screwed people over".

    Harvey Moul

    Fish and visitors stink after three days - Ben Franklin

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