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Thread: Solo practice vs. Partner Practice, with particular reference to IAI

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    Default Solo practice vs. Partner Practice, with particular reference to IAI

    I was at the recent Aiki Expo, and a Systema practitioner came up to the table where I was selling my books, leafed through Old School (my book on koryu), and then rather scornfully threw it back on the table and said to me, “Too old for me.” I said, “Oh?” And he replied, “Yeah. It’s form training. Any form training is absolutely weak, because it’s limiting. The only effective martial art has no form. We in Systema are far more powerful than other arts because ours is an art of freedom, because we are not bound by forms.” I said (Jeez I’ve mellowed in my middle years), “You have a good point about how forms can limit one, but freedom to move is limited by your neurological organization. You can’t do anything that your brain and body won’t let you do. The open question is, ‘Can you achieve freedom without “formal” training to teach your nervous system to do things it couldn’t otherwise do?’” The conversation ended there, with the young man’s contemptuous shrug.

    I am not offering this as an opening gambit to discuss Systema. Those interested, please save it for another thread. I raise the subject only to say this: any sports system has basic drills and movement to train the nervous system. (In fact, I would assume Systema has basic drills as well, even if they don’t look like kata). Rules limit “freedom,” but they also concentrate training into certain essentials which allows developments that otherwise could not have taken place. The boxing hook, for example, would probably never have been invented if cross-hip throws had not been eliminated from boxing.

    Which leads to a consideration of form. I’ve recently become passionately re-involved with hsing I, training two-three hours day minimum. Hsing –I, “form directed by the will” is, very definitely such a neurological retraining system. And it’s primarily solo form. (None the less, partner practice and later, sparring is considered essential, but even so, the solo form is considered the primary training).

    The recent threads about iaido and jo provoked my interest. I’m amused by the vehement reaction to Meik’s rather silly joke (man, talk about power. One joke – 125 replies later!!!!!), but I was more interested by his cogent discussion about blending two ryu, and about the merits of training solo vs. partner. (This post is NOT about the merits of simultaneously practicing two different systems, something I’ve written all I have to say elsewhere, but more about solo vs. partner.)

    Thinking about it, I’ve done far more solo training in koryu than partner. For many years, I did hours of suburi, often at midnight at a local shrine. I’d go over one side or the other of forms, or simply do suburi. Thus, my physical system, my nervous system got very well trained, as I did the movements so many times that they became “natural” to me. When I take a kamae in Araki-ryu or Buko-ryu, it is like pushing the keyboard and up comes Microsoft Word. The program is booted up and on. The result of this was WHEN I did partner practice, I had the “space” to worry about my partner/enemy, and really study ma-ai, kiai, etc., because where to put my feet, the position of my arms, my breathing pattern, etc., was taken care of. In this sense, my koryu training turns out to be not so different from my hsing I training.

    Which leads me to muse, yet again, on iai, BUT, NOT ON MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN RYU!!!!!!!!! Please Lord, not about that. So Charles Mahan, none of this is directed to or applies to you or what you practice. Anything that you find agreeable is absolutely accidental, and any disagreements or criticisms of iai exclude any thoughts of MJER, a totally unique martial practice utterly unlike anything I have ever seen. ('')

    Iai, in it’s original form was, as Meik writes, an auxiliary training method, but I think a very significant one. Notwithstanding such advanced training as Wm. Bodiford describes in Kashima Shin-ryu, almost all partner practice was with bokuto, etc. Yet, the sword itself was as essential an “article of clothing” as a kimono to a bushi. He had to know everything about it – from cleaning it to walking with it to drawing and returning it. Iai, in addition to all the things I and others have written in the long thread about “seiza and iaido,” served another very important purpose. It taught a person how to handle a sword, how to draw it (yes, even for surprise attack and all the other scenarios, sure). But, the most important functions it provided were two-fold: It’s a damn sight more interesting solo practice than suburi, both for it’s practical utility and complexity (this encouraging the trainee to practice that much more, and in far more sophisticated sequences than mere sword swinging,") AND, it was the equivalent of a gun-safety course. There in the preparation for the forms and the forms themselves are the equivalent of gun cleaning, checking your load, weapon awareness and retention, etc. It was so essential that it was included in most sogo bujutsu, and in many systems, it’s absence was considered such a lack that it was later added (Yagyu Seigo-ryu was, in my uneducated opinion, added in just this way to YSR).

    That it later got “abstracted out” as a stand-alone practice (actually, a seiza-alone practice, in many ryu) is an artifact of history, of different practitioners’ interests and preoccupations. Once abstracted out, like any specialty, circumscribed, it developed it's own idiosyncracies and unique merits, . . .but this has been discussed elsewhere, hasn't it?

    Best

    Ellis Amdur
    [url]www.ellisamdur.com
    Last edited by Ellis Amdur; 11th October 2003 at 04:31.

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    Ellis,

    Very good post and I tend to agree (even as an iaidoka). My own teacher said repeatedly, "iai teaches one to handle a live blade". Period. This was as opposed to the other inseparable aspects of swordsmanship; shinai geiko & kumitachi (tameshigiri as well). At the very least, if iai is missing a paired aspect of training (kumitachi or kumi-iai), it just doesn't "feel" right.

    There's a lot of controversy about Iaido (etc.) around today. Hell, just look at every other thread in this forum... Frankly, I'm sick of hearing about it... Folks, it's about the teacher or dojo, not the art. This is true of ANY art.

    <lurk mode back on>

    Regards,

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    Andrew -

    Thanks for the good words, but I have one disagreement. It's only about the dojo if you are discussing the merits of the dojo. It's only about the teacher if you are discussing the merits of the teacher. But it's definitely about the art if one wishes to understand why one chooses to move or act a certain way, or , even more important, if one wishes to acquire a specific skill set that is contained in one art and not another.

    Best

    Ellis Amdur
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    I thought about starting out with some funny comments (my standard M.O.) but upon second thought I decided I have already poked enough fun at Ellis than is healthy for any man that stands a foot shorter than he does. And to set the record strait I have never so much as peeked at his woman...okay...I admit I saw a picture.. but I looked at it in a real platonic kinda way.

    Okay, all joking aside that was a really good post Ellis. I think you hit right on to what a lot of solo practice in Iai (koryu or gendai....MJER Iai even ) is about. Many of the statements you make illustrate exactly why it is so important that iai be practiced with a live blade. You just can't get the same feeling, sense, feedback, etc. from a bokuto or even an iaito until you are totally familiar with a shinken. It is also one of the reasons that in the dojo I trained in I didn't handle a bokuto in class until I had already been at it for 3 years with first an iaito and then a shinken.

    I would like to comment further, but I would kind of like to see where this thread goes first before I do that.

    This looks like it is going to be interesting.
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

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    Ellis,

    Are we discussing specific ryuha now and their specific technical merits?

    I think you posted some good points about solo iai alone. My view is that this is not enough--in any school.

    I'd be interested to hear what you think about the iai of TSKSR and how that differes from that of MJER or say Nakamura-ryu on the surface (that is, as a casual observer).

    Best,

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    Andrew -

    "Enough" always means to me, "Does it do what "you," or "the teacher," or "the ryu" says it does. That was the subject of that LONG thread on iai and seiza some time ago, and we've covered that ground. Ryu that emphasize or only do solo forms may be doing "enough" if that solo practice conforms to their aims.

    But, in terms of specific ryu, TSKSR has all the components I spoke about in that previous thread as well as here: familiarization with handling the weapon in all it's aspects, and specific scenario training for infiltation, fighting in low ceilinged rooms, in the dark, etc. (I rely on Otake sensei's statements to me on this). I think it is clear that if the TSKSR iaijutsu was abstracted out as a "stand-alone," system, it would not, in itself be a complete fighting system, and if it were altered (seiza instead of iaigoshi, for example), it's combative aspects would be vitiated - and vehement claims regarding it's strength and power based on it's history, lineage, or the teacher's claims would be empty words. You are what you do, as has been said before here.

    Nakamura-ryu is a fascinating system to consider from a "developmental" perspective. Nakamura decried what he repeatedly stated (I've heard him) was the weakness of most modern iaido systems to prepare one to fight with a sword. That many people cannot cut well is true - if one has not cut objects - with the style of cutting in one's kenjutsu/iai forms !!!! - then the sword may very possibly get stuck, glance off, cut at an angle, etc. At the same time, I believe that to really verify or improve one's skill, a practitioner of kenjutsu or iai should practice one's tameshigiri with the exact form that one is taught in the kata, and not try to "cut better" with a specialized test cutting style.

    As most know, Nakamura particularly focused on tameshigiri. It seemed to me - and to others far more skilled with a sword than I - that his kata displayed a cutting style more appropriate to tameshigiri of unmoving targets than an armed individual fighting back. His deep sweeping cuts leave one open, I believe, were the enemy equally or greater skilled, than in ryu where the cuts end closer to the center line.

    When I observe other ryu, I look for the following: in sogo bujutsu, is the movements, cutting style, etc. congruent between the kenjutsu and iaijutsu. If they are doing something different, I'm puzzled. If they assert a specific aim, is what they do congruent with that aim. If what they are doing in the iai is similar to that of more "modernized" iaido systems, then I assume there has been "contamination," similar to that of the leavening of kendo that is so changing many koryu kenjutsu for the worse. (NO, I am not "bashing" kendo or iaido - altho' miscegenation improves the vitality of the human race, it seems to destroy the vitality and integrity of most ryu).

    When I have a chance, I simply ask the practitioner what they are trying to accomplish by doing what they are doing - and sometimes it is clear they cannot, and sometimes I don't know if they can, and sometimes I receive a very enlightening answer, and it's all just to satisfy my curiousity anyway.

    As for MJER, . . . .NAH, as I said in the first post, I've got opinions on every other ryu, but not that one. It's far too unique and different from anything else in the whole wide world. As for all the other "modernized" koryu iaido systems that focus on seiza practice, check the discussion on Seiza and Iai for my thoughts.

    Best

    Ellis Amdur

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    Default personal perspective

    I'd generally agree with everything that's been said here. Must be all the "west coasters" in this thread with their tree huggin' good vibes... ;-)

    But seriously folks, I find for my own practice that paired forms, solo forms and tameshigiri all work together to create a more thorough understanding than I could have achieved without one aspect. Most of my training has been solo kata, which in turn changed the way I use a bokken. But nothing educates my execution and understanding of the solo kata I do like running the same thing paired. We do 2 versions of paired kata, one making contact with bokken, the other (formal version) is done off-set by about 6 feet. The partner is there for timing and general targeting, but we are well out of contact range. The more formal version is done with iaito (or shinken if that's what you practice with). Whenever I run class and have people do a kata paired I hear the same thing, "Oh, I see..." Movements that didn't make sense come into focus and persistent bad habits are more clearly seen (along with the reason that they are a bad habit, ah pain, the great motivator!).

    I also really stongly agree with what Ellis said about the practice of tameshigiri. We have some basic just-for-tameshigiri patterns that we practice (and lets face it, we do some of the Toyama Ryu patterns because they run all the tournaments) but once you are familiar with the act of really cutting, tameshigiri has to be done from within the kata and without changing the kata. This makes for some "bad" cuts by tournament standards. For example, my heiho nuku cuts on a target generally only penetrate 2-3", because in most of our kata the draw is a distancing cut, to the eyes, throat or back of the arm. The kata is not about taking the head clean off, it's about slicing through the front of the object (body part). In tournaments, that would be a failed cut. I'm also really into full cuts one handed because I think it's important to be able to do that (and looks pretty durn cool to boot), but it isn't what's called for by most of our kata. Same thing with the 45 degree angle cut. Scott and I have talked about this before how MJER (an art like no other! TM) doesn't really use that angle much, so if he was to do tameshigiri (which he doesn't because MJER, an art like no other! TM, doesn't generally practce that) his cuts would be "too steep". Too steep for what? A point?

    I also really like what was said about kata being educated by a combative experience, rather than a kata about cutting a target. AnothernorthwestsenseiwhowasheavilyinfuencedbyToyamaRyu's kata (to me) simply looks like a pattern of tournament cuts on a makiwara. I find that too far removed from the real deal of combative education.

    Anyway, just wanted to chime in there. That's probably more than my 2cents, anybody have change?
    Christian Moses
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    Default cross training

    I think it's worth mentioning that almost nobody practices in one mode only. Amongst the senior Iai sensei in our little backwater corner of MJER, I know at least one has practiced Jodo seriously, and many have extensive, even championship Kendo experience. Of the many kenjutsu proponents who have weighed in against solo iai practice, I would venture that every one has spent extensive time in solo practice as Ellis describes: learning his weapon, shadowboxing and drilling one side and the other of partner kata, cutting. Most Iai practitioners also practice other martial arts, usually including kumite or randori or something that teaches maai, seme, timing, and combative stress. Even the most pure Iai practitioner might include the Tachi-uchi-no-kurai, and might occasionally demonstrate targets and riai using a partner. The idea that there are huge numbers of people who do solo Iai exclusively and never ever test their ideas and training, and have no reference point in other forms of fighting, in my experience is largely a fiction. Even the most stalwart defenders of solo iai in these pages (electrons?) have at least a couple years of partnered combat art training to judge by.

    I would agree that solo and partner and cutting all work together to build a well-rounded sword skill. The focus of Iai is on the initial moment of a conflict, even before danger is evident. It involves seizing advantage and dimishing the opponent simultaneously. The Tosa samurai were said to be impossible to surprise, relaxed and natural yet vigilant and ready in any position or situation. I submit that practicing from seiza or tate-hiza, being "dead" postures, trains one to react combatively without preparation. From this point, the argument is about how much solo vs. partner practice is needed to hone these skills. What skills, and what level of refinement is deemed necessary, are the core questions to be asked of any martial art.

    Our Aikido shihan always tell us to practice more slowly, more gently. Does this mean they expect us to never practice at full speed or strength? I think they know full well that we will spend years beating the snot out of each other with youthful vigour, like they did in their day. Their teachers told them the same thing. An MJER sensei once told me that we do not practice tameshigiri, and we will not be doing it again next Thursday. That's okay because it's a shinken thing, and in Iai we don't spend a lot of time playing with sticks and pretending they are swords.... (ducking)
    Last edited by Jack B; 12th October 2003 at 05:15.
    Jack Bieler

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    Jack -

    The question about cross-training is quite complex, to be sure. This whole post arose in reaction to the reaction to Meik's post in response to a question if iaido would enhance another's training of Shinto Muso-ryu. My paraphrase of Meik's reply,with which I agree is that "modern" iaido systems (excepting, of course, MJER - Charles Mahan, don't worry, nothing I write applies to that unique art, unfathomable to all outsiders) use coordinated sets of movements that are in conflict with the movement system inherent in jodo. Meik makes reference to iai training methods associated with Shinto Muso-ryu, which share the same movement system, and therefore, would conceivably enhance training rather than conflict or be irrelevant.

    There is a problem for someone trying to be well-rounded by, for example, combining aikido for empty hand, some iaido system for sword drawing, kendo for competitive practice, etc. (Nishio Shoji, with whom I've studied some aikido, is a rare example of that successful synthesis - but even so, without what Karl Friday calls the Kabbala of Movement, inherent in all koryu, whether he can pass on his unique skills remains an open question to me).

    In my own training, the struggle in doing two koryu was to keep them absolutely separate, not use one to enhance the other - not only the movements, but the committment - when I was in one dojo, the other didn't exist - and vice versa. (Although I have found in free-style training, there is some melding, particularly in high stress situations, and I have, I believe, arrived at a place where this melding is effective, rather than dissonant).

    When I add other training methods, to my core study it is important that they contribute to what I am already doing - judo and other body-to-body grappling fit in well with Araki-ryu, as did, surprisingly, muay-thai. Aikido very definitely conflicted, and I discontinued it for well over fifteen years, only recommencing teaching in recent years when I found a way to perform aikido that reflected the other arts I practice while remaining within the aikido form. Hsing-i, at least at this point, is just another world, and there seems little overlap - it's just a new area of study.

    I think the biggest problem for trainees occurs when things are close - but different. For example, I recall a European individual who entered Toda-ha Buko-ryu, with a previous training history in jodo. He then, and even now, uses the naginata somewhat like a jo. His movements are abbreviated and quick, and his understanding of appropriate ma-ai for a naginata has always been wrong. This didn't have to happen - but if one can't separate the systems, they contaminate each other, and this rarely is productive. And in the rare cases that it is, I suppose this is how new ryu got developed.

    Best

    Ellis Amdur
    www.ellisamdur.com

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    I wish the 'other' threads had dealt with the details of why Iai arts are incompatible with SMR Jo. For instance, plant-and-pull cuts conflicting with oshigiri movements. I would hazard to guess that SMR Jodo as practiced in Tokyo probably is not incompatible because the Jo sword (and stick) have changed to match the Iai and Kendo movements. Like Nishio's aikido has probably changed to match his other influences. Whether this is good or valid depends on the skill of the innovator in synthesizing principles into a new coherent system. You may yet find Hsing-i bleeding over elsewhere. There are only so many ways a human body can stand/move/bend.

    I have actually heard it said (in a Tokyo style Jo system) that it is impossible to understand and advance in SMR without practicing the correct branch of MSR because MJER was too different (must be another unique ryu thing).
    Jack Bieler

    "The best things can't be told; the second best are misunderstood; the third best are what we talk about." - after Heinrich Zimmer

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    Lightbulb From Outa Left Field.....

    Dear Folks:

    I have absolutely NO idea if this will have a bearing on what is being discussed here, but I will throw the experience out for what it is worth.

    This last weekend I attended a syposium in Washington DC on sword work. The preponderance of attendees were advocates of TAI CHI sword and were quite accomplished at parry-and-thrust material. I was invited as one whose training represents more of the parry and Cut art (Kumdo, Kum Bup). I will also mention that my training is exclusively single and two-man forms as well as cutting. Here are some of the things that I found.

    It is almost impossible to use cutting verses thrusting in a controlled application such as sparring and more so if there is no armour. I actually had a partner who parried my blade with his blade (jian) grabbed my sword wrist and then thrust with his own sword and did this on a number of occasions.

    There is almost no way to assess the actual damage one would incur with a thrust as experience with cutting has shown that simple taps and bumps with a sword commonly do not do the damage ascribed to them. While feinting is an accepted portion of swordwork, I wonder if people have blurred the lines of feinting and striking to the point that one can rarely make a distinction.

    Now, what does this have to do with the discussion. Well, I think it was a great educational experience for me and has given me a lot to think about regarding combat distance, timing, and power. On the other hand, had I not more experience with the MA I could have easily gone home thinking that all of my form and cutting work had been neating eclipsed by less experienced individuals with greater facility over a more limited number of skills. Instead I have come home with some expereince which I will use to polish my formwork and make it yet more effective. I will also appreciate that formwork, whether of one weapon or another, allows for greater expression of the weapons' potential than anything that a controlled environment might offer. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
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    Solo practice is essential.
    Paired practice is essential.
    Sparring is essential.

    Solo practice develops the proper understanding of fundamentals.
    Paired practice develops the proper understanding of their application.
    Sparring shows you whether you've been lying to yourself all along or not.
    Earl Hartman

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    Originally posted by Earl Hartman

    Sparring shows you whether you've been lying to yourself all along or not.
    I don't need sparring to tell me that! The answer is yes!

    In all seriousness, though, an excellent point.

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    I base my contentions on my experience in kendo, iai, and jo, in addition to some taijutsu.

    In kendo, you work on fundamentals and basics a lot before you learn to spar. Once you start sparring, if you are not careful, your fundamentals can go straight to hell under the pressure of 1) fighting for your life against guys who are light-years better than you and 2) the desire to get your stick on him any way you can. In an ideal situation this is prevented by 1) very strict standards in judging matches; that is, you can't get a point unless you hit him "correctly", 2) getting yelled at constantly by your teachers and senpai, 3) continuous practice of the basics away from the pressure of matches, and 4) the development of sense and maturity where you come to realize that it is precisely the correct fundamentals that make everything work.

    If one understands the kata of the system one is practicing properly, then practicing paired kata in the correct way (as a controlled match, NOT NOT NOT as an exercise in the perfection of aesthetic form) then kata are a valuable tool for seeing how the underlying assumptions of the system, embodied in the kata, have practical application. Once this is understood, then sparring, even if it is undertaken in a controlled manner, can be very valuable for developing a real sense of timing, distancing, strategy, and tactics and the application of what is learned in the kata. However, one must always keep in mind that it is still just sparring.

    Once these things are understood, then solo practice becomes a way to visualize and reinforce all these other things as opposed to just waving a stick around.

    However, I don't really know how sparring might or might not work in iai, and I'm not sure how it would work in jo either. But then again, what became kendo was originally a way to train in kenjutsu; it was only after kendo became what it is today that people can argue about whether it is "real" swordfighting or not.

    Finally, we all must admit to ourselves that there is no perfect training method. It is all just an approximation, the closest we can get to the "real thing" without killing or maiming one another.
    Earl Hartman

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    Thumbs up

    Excellent thread. Thank you, Mr. Amdur!
    Krzysztof M. Mathews
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