Israel's "Berlin Wall"

[Amir]

I am sorry but my last post was cut in the middle, it should continue:
"
6. Isn't the devil you know better ? Killing Arafat is likely to create one of several difficult to contain scenarios. Either a chaos in which multiple Palestinian fractions are fighting over control using terrorist attacks as their way of internal political discussion Or a rise of more fundamentalist and militaristic Islam .

I believe these are reasons enough. I hope my government will give them some thought.
"

I also wrote something on the wall - next post

[Amir]

Disclaimer: I am an Israeli. But I am a private citizen - my opinions are my own, not representing anyone else.



The Wall
--------

A few points about the Wall of separation:

1. The idea was put forward by the left wing of Israeli politics. Making it "Sharon's wall" is ridiculous considering the amount of delays he and his government inserted into this project.

2. The aim of this project isn't setting the future border between Israel and "Palestine". It is supposed to be an easily defendable fence to reduce the amount of terrorist attacks on Israeli civilian population.
Reducing the number of passes in this fence is a practical consideration, hence the initiative to enclose Israeli population even if it is outside the 1967 borders. Further, since the Palestinian people aggression is the reason for this wall, placing the fence inside the Israeli border would have been giving a prize to terrorism and aggression. I would admit some of the changes in the fence are due to political consideration as the government relies on right wing parties - who have supporters in those places.

3. Some of your expressions come from someone with a political agenda, but twisting the historical facts:

Palestinian land dividing Palestine from itself and usurping Palestinian territory in violation of the internationally recognized 1967 borders

A few facts are missing here:
There is no "Palestinian land" unless one means that in the private ownership sense, and countries may confiscate private lands for public action according to the Israeli law. But the implication is that of a land belonging to the Palestinian nation - this nation doesn't exist and has no land until a peace agreement arrives.
"the internationally recognized 1967 borders" - since when are they recognized and approved ? If you will check a Palestinian map - Israeli never existed! And the pre 1967 borders have no more legal justification then the post 1967 borders: both borders are designated by a cease fire agreement, after a war the Arab nations imposed on Israel (As far as the Jordanian border - they entered the six day war voluntarily despite Israel urges to stay out of it).

4. While I am sorry for the trouble and sorrow this wall will cause innocent Palestinian population. I think it's ability to save civilian lives is more important. The right to life comes first and foremost, then come all the other human rights.

And yes, I am sure some of this suffering would have prevented without any loss of security, if only the planners were more considerate, or willing to invest a little more money on that wall, but this is a huge project done by a leucocratic system, and we all know what that means.


Hence, I can only say I wish for this wall to be built, and as soon as possible. Who knows, it might save my own life someday.



Amir

[Dex]

Yes that wall has been such a help in stopping the suicide attacks, hasn't it.

The fact that it is used to cut off people from the arable land is just an accident. The fact it is illegal is a technicality. Welcome to the new apartheid system.

4 times as many Palestinians have died as Israelis. And frankly both sides are going to just keep on dying and the acts on both sides will just become more and more horrific.

I have not the slightest sympathy with anyone who supports murder for political gain.

I would however like to comment on the claim that Israel did not exist on the Palestinian map and pre/post 1967 borders blah blah: Israel did not exist on ANY map pre 1947. Is that true?

Israel has only one supporter in the world for its current actions, America.

[Starkjudo]

Yes, Dex, and i'm quite happy to support the wall. Who exactly is supporting murder for political gain here? There's no illegality here, just a people doing what is necessary to safeguard themselves against attack.

Amir: While Arafat may not be directing the terrorists, is he not an enabler? While he had made half-hearted calls for Hamas to agree to a cease-fire, he has never called on the dissolution of Hamas itself - in fact, has given tacit approval for their existence. Arafat could do wonders to lead his people to peace. Instead he has decided time and time again to sit with his thumbs up his butt and allow the chaos to continue around him - up to not agreeing to a settlement that gave about 97% of the land the Palestinians asked for, if I recall correctly. He is doing abolutely nothing to help the cause of "his" people.

[Budoka 34]

Funny how the Palestinians or anybody else wasn't interested in the "arable land" before the Isreali's made it bloom.
The Jewish history in the region is just as long and well establish as the Arabs.
The "Palestinians" were/are made up of several hundred priviously(pre-Islam) nomadic tribes. The've never had a "homeland".

As Golda Meir said, " Peace, When the Palestinians love their children more then they hate the Jews, we will have peace.".

How anyone can compare people who build a fence to defend themselves to people who blow up their own children, I'll never understand.

[Jack B]

leucocratic

Actually, I'm not sure I know what that means... rulership by whites?

There is already a Palestinian state; it is called Jordan. The British designated it for them, but the Hashemite (Saudi) family of Hussein took it over by force. They don't particularly get along with their 60% Palestinian subjects: witness the purges of activists and refusal to absorb refugees. The proposed new Palestinian state would be the second one, and the 23rd Arab vote in the UN. And the militants will not rest until there are three Palestinian states. The worst thing that could happen for Hamas and Islamic Jihad is for peace to break out and for them to have an actual nation.

And wasn't Scotland divided off from the rest of the Island by a wall?

[elder999]

Another question: How is it in Arafat's interest not to have a Palestinian homeland?

[Dex]

Scotland did have a wall yup...along our border. I think that's allowed. Seeing as how it is on our own land.

Maybe someone will tell me what law gives you the right to build a wall in another country, I would be really interested to see that one.

[elder999]

and another, not necessarily unrelated question: given that Sharon was the cabinet member in Menachem Begin's regime said to have argued most loudly for the air strike on Iraq's Osirak reactor, and given his country's long-held stance on Iran posing a threat to Israel, what is the likelihood of Israel bombing Iran's nuclear facilities at Bushehr if the U.S. does not act?

To what degree would Israel's acting in that regard be in the U.S.'s interests?

[Starkjudo]

Originally posted by elder999
Another question: How is it in Arafat's interest not to have a Palestinian homeland?

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBu...20020110e.html

This, plus the money that has flown into Arafat's personal coffers for years. Peace isn't good for his business.

Money aside - an Arafat as politcal leader of a nation at pease is, well, just another political leader. Arafat as struggling, beleagered hero to his people gets him a lot more press.

[Starkjudo]

I'd say the likelihood of an air strike on the Iranians would be likely, but there are also tactical considerations. A) It's a little bit further of a drive B) last time they had to evade Syrian/Jordanian radar as well as Iraqi: This time they have U.S. radar in the way, which I would wager whatever temporary bases we have set up are still more advanced than what the Iraqis had in place at the time - but that is just a guess. I would assume radar as a whole has improved in the last 20 years, and Israel doesn't have any stealth fighters that I am aware of.

[elder999]

Originally posted by Starkjudo
I'd say the likelihood of an air strike on the Iranians would be likely, but there are also tactical considerations. A) It's a little bit further of a drive B) last time they had to evade Syrian/Jordanian radar as well as Iraqi: This time they have U.S. radar in the way, which I would wager whatever temporary bases we have set up are still more advanced than what the Iraqis had in place at the time - but that is just a guess. I would assume radar as a whole has improved in the last 20 years, and Israel doesn't have any stealth fighters that I am aware of.

Given the second part of my question, we may be able to sweep aside the consideration of U.S. radar as a factor. I bet it's "down for maintenance" that day, or pointed somewhere else..

[Starkjudo]

Originally posted by elder999
Given the second part of my question, we may be able to sweep aside the consideration of U.S. radar as a factor. I bet it's "down for maintenance" that day, or pointed somewhere else..

Really, though, who can say? How critical we are of Israel and our responses seem to change by the day. The Administration has had a fairly schizo relationship with Israel from what I have seen.

[elder999]

Originally posted by Starkjudo
Really, though, who can say? How critical we are of Israel and our responses seem to change by the day. The Administration has had a fairly schizo relationship with Israel from what I have seen.

Getting back to the wall, having established that perhaps it is neither in Israel or Arafat's interests to have an independent Palestinian state(excluding Jordan, of course)-what possible motives for the construction of the wall might there be-given that it will probably not stop suicide bombing and/or other terrorist acts in Israel?
Of course, if it does stop them....

[Starkjudo]

While I would have to defer to Amir here, I would think the hope of containment ot terrorism is driving it as much as anything.