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Thread: Israel's "Berlin Wall"

  1. #76
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    I think the 400,000 Israeli settlers in Palestinian land should be offered the option to stay and become citizens (subjects?) of the new Arab state. I wonder how the current oppressed minority would treat its own diverse minority population?
    Jack Bieler

    "The best things can't be told; the second best are misunderstood; the third best are what we talk about." - after Heinrich Zimmer

  2. #77
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    Interesting idea, Jack, but somehow I don't see the Israelis going for it!
    Hugh Wallace

    A humble wiseman once said, "Those who learn by the inch and talk by the yard should be kicked by the foot."

  3. #78
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    Thanks for the complement

    what is your view (and the general view inside Israel) about the settlement of Jews within the 'Palestinian' areas? To me it seems as if the settlers are very right wing and that they have no interest/intention of reaching a peaceful settlement with the Arabs. Is this the case for the majority of them?
    The view differs between people. Some people claim the settlements should all be thrown away, but in fact they are only a slightly larger group then the “settle every where” extremist group and are just as extreme.

    I never claim to represent the majority of Israelis – didn’t make the necessary polls for that, neither was I elected.

    But my opinion separates the settlements into groups:

    Some of the settlements are full of people I wouldn’t like to get back – they are not only extreme but crazy too. And even have in them groups trying to terrorize the Palestinians (“to revenge” they say ). I don’t know where they should get to, but I wouldn’t like them to live anywhere near me.

    A very large group of settlements is very near the border, normally in groups making space and controlling strategically important areas. I would rather most of these places to stay forever as that is my homeland. But wouldn’t compromise on their staying in place, at least in a lease for some 100 years until we would be certain this peace agreement is for keepers.
    Unlike the impression you describe. Most of these settlers are very reasonable non-extremists people. And the government has encouraged them to settle there. This is also the majority of settlers.
    In my opinion, one could imagine annexing one of the Israeli-Arab cities very near the territories in return for some of the land. Except – the Israeli-Arab people reject that and wish to live in Israel (nobody is talking of taking their land away from them – just changing their citizenship to Palestinian and making their land Palestinian).

    Another area many consider as a settlement is in and around Jerusalem. In there it’s a much more complicated manner. I can’t see Israel giving it up. Being reasonable, I doubt the Palestinian would give it up either. If I were to propose an agreement, I would suggest a very complex border, which Israel would concede to the Palestinians very slowly. That border should include at least 90% of each nationality inside it’s own nation (or the nation it wishes to be in, doing a Poll for each family)
    And, in the most sacred area’s a new arrangement: both nations maintain their right to the land, and give “indefinite, temporary authority” to the U.N. To make it more fair – the Vatican should join the settlement as well and so should the cities of Mecca and Medina and maybe other cities sacred to other major religions. Making a new world order – the most sacred places to all religions belong to no nation.



    I must go now, will try to find time to answer tomorrow, But I must work sometimes.

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    Originally posted by Starkjudo
    Originally posted by Dex
    Yes. Also...your persistent shouting about Israeli lives makes you seem hypocritical, when you are consistently answered with the fact that 4 times as many Palestinians have died.</b>

    And you are consistently reminded that the lives should 1st be measured in combatants vs. non-combatants.


    <b>If I seem brusque, you will have to forgive me. I propose peaceful settlement while you throw out ad hominems.


    Where would that be? I see a guy who is in a country stuggling under consistent terrorist attacks, while you look down your nose at him safe at home.
    Keep your snide remarks to yourself my friend. During the 30 years of the Troubles, up here in Scotland if you strayed into the wrong place you would be anally raped then stripped and dumped 20 miles outside town, or maybe get the initials of your attacker carved into your face and !!!, maybe killed...whatever. They were all very ingenious. My father was an Orangeman and my mother a Catholic.

    At the end of the day it was one side against the other and as the whole world can see, we found an answer. Non violence. It ain't perfect and it ain't finished, but will you deny that we found a reasonable answer?

    And if you believe, StarkJudo, that you have some special right to decide which lives are worth more, please share it with me. I could always do with someone else's morals being foisted on me.

    I don't presume to have all the answers, I just don't like dead people. Seems to me too many people here have grudges to bear and axes to grind.
    M Johnston

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    snip...But I must work sometimes.


    Never let work get in the way of you posting on e-budo. I don't!
    Hugh Wallace

    A humble wiseman once said, "Those who learn by the inch and talk by the yard should be kicked by the foot."

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    Here is the only statistical data I could find: 2002 ICT Study.

    This study was done by an Israel-based agency, and documents that 78% of Israeli casualties are noncombatants, compared to 36% of Palestinians. (Their database has been updated to current totals.)

    From World Tribune.com: About 1,600 Palestinians have been killed since the war began in September 2000. More than 600 Israelis have been killed.

    The study said 617 out of those Palestinians killed were noncombatants, a majority of the victims [ie, largest category of casualties]. In contrast, 417 of Israeli casualties, or 80 percent, comprised noncombatants.

    203 Palestinians, one of out every eight casualties, were killed by Palestinians themselves. They also includes Palestinians killed while assembling bombs for suicide attacks against Israel.

    Among Israelis, the study said, females account for 31 percent of all Israelis killed in the war. Women comprise almost 40 percent of the Israeli noncombatants killed by Palestinians.

    Among Palestinians, more than 95 percent of the casulaties have been male. A huge majority of the Palestinians are young males.
    It's not a matter of some people's "lives being worth more", it's a matter of what people are doing to get themselves killed. The suicide bombers themselves and Palestinians executed by their own side for collaboration are counted as 'casualties'.

    I was not able to find any statistical evidence to refute the ICT study, only anecdotal stories. If anyone has access to other real information, I'd like to see it.
    Jack Bieler

    "The best things can't be told; the second best are misunderstood; the third best are what we talk about." - after Heinrich Zimmer

  7. #82
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    Originally posted by Jack B


    I was not able to find any statistical evidence to refute the ICT study, only anecdotal stories. If anyone has access to other real information, I'd like to see it.
    The State Department did a study that correlated the incidents and casualties with who was in office in Israel, starting in 1995. Aside from some interesting variations due to that correlation, it pretty much parallels the ICT study-it would kind of have to, wouldn't it?

    I mean, the raw data stays the same.....
    Aaron J. Cuffee


    As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
    - H.L. Mencken

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    The depth of historical ignorance on the part of the pro-PLO posters on this thread is nothing short of scandalous. You have got the cart before the horse.

    The Israeli `occupation` of the disputed territories after 1967 is not the cause of Arab violence against Israel, it is the result of Arab violence against Israel.

    These lands were not in Israel`s posession before 1967. All of Eastern Jerusalem, including the Har ha Bait (the Temple Mount) was controlled by the Arabs. And yet, there was no peace. Why?

    Simply put, the Arabs have never accepted the right of Israel to exist. The fairly recent peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan are the exception, not the rule, and these agreements would collapse over night without US largesse to the Egyptian and Jordanian governments.

    From the late 1800s up through the UN partition resolution of 1947, the Arabs attacked and murdered Jews in Eretz Israel (`Palestine`) to the best of their ability, even though there was no Israel and no refugees. Indeed, during this time, the Arab population rose by leaps and bounds, mainly due to immigration into Eretz Israel from other Arab areas as a result of increased economic opportunities as a result of Jewish immigration. The presence of Jews in Eretz Israel in large number is NOT the cause of the `refugee problem`.

    The `refugee problem` and the `occupied territories` are a result of the Arab war, now more than a century old, against the re-establishment of Jewish independence in Eretz Israel.

    Why are the Arabs pursuing this war? Becasue the Arabs do not believe that the Jews, as an historically oppressed dhimmi people, have the right to a state of their own. It is as simple as that. The Arabs object to an independent Jewish state because they do not believe that the Jews have a right to be free from Muslim oppression. For the Muslim Arabs, the only rights a Jew (or a Christian, for that matter) may have are whatever rights his Muslim master believes he should have. They are anti-Semites, plain and simple.?@And don`t give me any of that `Arabs can`t be anti-Semites; they`re Semites too`, nonsense. They hate Jews and bveleieve that they should be subservient to Msulims. That makes them anti-Semites.

    The situation for the Jews was very much the same under Christianity, in spite of the Enlightenment, which came to a crashing end in the years 1933-1945. Theodore Herzl saw, as early as the late 1800s that the Jews had no future in Europe, and events proved, tragically, that he was a modern prophet.

    The Arabs and their friends squawk about how Israel ignores UN resolutions,?@but it is the Arabs themselves who brought their own tragedy upon themselves by rejecting the partiton resolution of 1947, which would have provided for the very first independednt Arab Palestinian state in history. They instead staked everything on a war of genocide against the Jews. They lost this war, and all of the other wars they have started in an attempt to destroy Israel and finish their genocide against the Jews. The refugees, the `occupied` territories and all the rest of it are all their own fault, the inevitable result of their own hatred, stupidity, and bellicosity.

    The PA, under Arafat, has attempted to continue this war. Arafat has purposely used his people as cannon fodder in his war of attempted extermination so as to whip up anti-Semitism by parading Arab victims of Israel`s attempts to protect itself from ARab terror. These people are victims, all right; victims of Arafat`s callousness.

    Israel needs to apologize to on one for doing its best to protect itself from people whose only aim is to kill Jews and destroy Israel. Other countires the most recent example being the US, have resorted to much more draconian measures under mush less provocation. It is disgusting to hear the nations of the world piously lecturing Israel about `human rights` when they trample them themselves daily in much more horrible fashion. Just ask Russia what it is doing in Chechnya, what China is doing in Tibet, or what rthe Muslim Sudanese are doing the the non-Muslims in their country.

    Israel also has no need to apologize to anyone for being a state of, by, nad for the Jews. After all, the terorist enablers who object to Jewish nationalsim seem to have no problem whatsoever with the Arab desire for their own 100 percent Judenrein, ethnically pure Arab state. Why is it OK for the Arabs to create another state of, by, and for Arabs but not OK for the Jews to have only one? Anyone who believes that ethnic nationalism is OK for the Arabs but not the Jews is a hypocrite.

    If anything, Israel has been far too lenient with Arafat and his terrorist cronies. They should have killed Arafat, Narsallah, Rantisi, Yassin, and all of the rest of them years ago.

    If people want to see the fence come down, tell Arafat to call off his dogs?D

    Also, Dex, your location is listed as Scotland, but I presume that you are an isrishman. If you are indeed Scottish,?@can you explain what Orangemena and the `Troubles` have to do?@with a Scot?
    Last edited by Earl Hartman; 30th October 2003 at 02:52.
    Earl Hartman

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    Default Thank you

    Thank you, Earl, for stating so elequently what I am unable to say in the heat of frustration, anger and despair at the breadth and depth of ignorance displayed on these forums and the larger society of which they are a microcosm.
    Cady Goldfield

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    Earl, the point is that people are dying on both sides of the conflict, and no amount of air strikes or suicide bombing is going to make anyone less dead. Nobody seems to be willing to acknowlege -on either side of the conflict- that the persistent violence has failed to solve anything. Every time Israel blows up some Hamas leader, there's a hundred more equally crazy people waiting to take his place, and every time a suicide bomber blows up a cafe, it just hardens Israeli resolve to stay. Everyone just needs to go home, drink a two-six of Jack, have sex and go to sleep. I just wonder why anyone engages in violence without any prospect for relative gain.

    Anyway, it's always 'Arabs' this and 'Jews' that. Your average Arab wants exactly the same thing as your average Jew; bread and peace. People seem to think that all Arabs are blood crazed anti-semites. Granted, there's a larger anti-semetic undercurrent in the Arab world, but that's because they're poorly educated. Poorly educated people think stupid things. Things like some fringe country with a marginal population is out to get them (not that some people in said country aren't, but they're in the minority and are also stupid).

    You can sit here and point out the flaws in Arab society until you're blue in the face in an attempt to justify military strikes at Palestinian targets, and you might even be right, but it's not going to stop the bombings and it's not going to make them magically dissappear. Subseqently, your argument solves nothing unless you're trying to justify bombing them out of existance (not that I'm saying you are).

    I am familiar -quite familiar- with the situation in Palestine/ Israel, and I know why the state of Israel came about, and I'm sorry that the situation has become so bloody, but it doesn't change the fact that both sides aren't going anywhere, and violence isn't cowing anyone, and righteous indignation isn't stopping the death, so what is the solution.
    Iain Richardson, compulsive post-having cake eater-wanter.

    "He shoots first who laughs last."
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  11. #86
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    Well, Iain, what is the solution?

    I would like to think that the majority of Arabs want bread and peace, but I`m not sure I believe it. A recent poll undertaken by a Palestinian polling organization showed that 75 percent of Palestinian Arabs would support continued terrorism against Israel even after an independent Palestinian state is created. This is not the view of a people that wants bread and peace. It is the view of a people for whom killing Jews and destroying Israel are the most important things in their lives.

    When I hear a poll that says 75 percent of Palestinian Arabs want peace with Israel and are willing to stop training their young people to murder women and children, I will have hope.

    In the meantime, the world should stop enabling Arafat`s terrorism and support Israel`s legitimate right of self-defense. The reason the Arabs feel that they can get away with what they are doing is that people have been so desensitized and are so worried about not imposing their views of morality on anyone (except on Israel, of course) that they think both sides are equally to blame for what is euphemistically called `the cycle of violence`.

    This is not true and there is no such thing. There is terrorism against Israel by people and organizations (the PA, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hizb`allah, the Tanzim, the Al Aksa Martyr`s Brigades, etc., etc., et.c, etc.) who are explicit and forthright about their goal of destroying Israel and either murdering or expelling the Jews who now live there, and there is legitimate self-defense by Israel and the Jews against such people.

    Israel has already shown that it is willing to accept a two-state solution. Indeed, ever since the Israeli aceptance of the 1947 UN partition resolution, they have shown time and time again that they support the `two states for two peoples` concept. Everything Arafat and his henchmen do show that they reject this utterly and that they have not given up on their dream of a `Palestine` completely `cleansed` of Jews. They are no better than Nazis, and history has shown that the only thing a Jew can hope for from a Nazi is death and that the only thing a Jew can do to prevent that is to kill the Nazi first. When Arafat and Co. realize that they cannot achieve their goal, perhaps they will give up and accept peace. It is precisely because they believe that, with the acquiesence of the world, they have a hope of achieving their goal that they continue to fight. It has always been like this. When Israel has been strong, the Arabs are peaceful. When Israel is perceived to be weak, they attack. They are just like the Germans in WWII, of whom Winston Churchill said `The Hun is either at your throat or at your feet.`

    As horrible as it is, Israel has no choice but to fight Arafat and Co. until they give up their `dream` of a world without Israel. Anyone with a conscience should supporrt Israel in this struggle.
    Last edited by Earl Hartman; 30th October 2003 at 05:55.
    Earl Hartman

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    Earl wrote:

    Also, Dex, your location is listed as Scotland, but I presume that you are an isrishman. If you are indeed Scottish,?@can you explain what Orangemena and the `Troubles` have to do?@with a Scot?


    I am not Dex but I am a Scot and can certainly give you an answer.

    Scotland, particularly West-Central Scotland (the city of Glasgow and the cities/town surrounding it) is very, very involved with the Irish Troubles. Glasgow has been described as 'Belfast without the bombs' and is seen as both a front line and a nuetral ground by both sides of the sectarian violence. Glasgow is home and refuge to many terrorists, sympathisers and supporters from both sides of the religious devide.

    Scotland was not bombed by the IRA during their bombing campaign on the UK mainland perhaps because they didn't want to alienate their supporters in Scotland and also to ensure that security was laxer, allowing them more freedom of movement and places to hide and possible because you don't s**t on your own door-step.

    Glasgow suffers sectarian violence pretty much every weekend that there is a football (soccer) game played, especially if it is between the Protestant Rangers and the Catholic Celtic clubs (the 'Old Firm' as we call them).

    Dex wrote:

    Keep your snide remarks to yourself my friend. During the 30 years of the Troubles, up here in Scotland if you strayed into the wrong place you would be anally raped then stripped and dumped 20 miles outside town, or maybe get the initials of your attacker carved into your face and !!!, maybe killed...whatever. They were all very ingenious. My father was an Orangeman and my mother a Catholic.


    All far too true. If you have a hint of a green scarf or shirt showing and wander into a Rangers area you could be killed for it. A young lad (17 years old) was returning from a Celtic match and walked through a 'Loyalist' area and one guy stepped out of a pub and cut his throat. the killer claimed that it was a politically motivated killing and that he should be sent to serve his prison sentence in Belfast with his Loyalist buddies. He is still in prision in Scotland. Similarly, if you had a hint of blue showing and wandered into a Celtic area you could also be killed.

    Here is a silly example of how stupid it gets: A friend of mine runs a bike shop selling top-of-the-range mountain bikes and he made the mistake of buying in a green and yellow bike. He couldn't even sell it when he had discounted it to about 50% of its value as it was the wrong colour and anyone who bought it could be asking for trouble if they went into the wrong area.

    Scotland, and even the West Coast is not all this bad and it is not at all uncommon to see friends out together who support either team or are of either religion but at its worst Glasgow approaches Belfast in its levels of extremism.

    I don't know if Dex is Irish as such but he, like me, is probably one of the people who's families come from both Scotland and Ireland. I have Irish relatives who were Scottish three generations ago and Scottish ones who were Irish. One set of great-grand parents were a mixed (Catholic-Prostestant) couple who had to leave Northern Ireland in the early 1900s because of religious intolerance. My girlfriend's mother is an Irish Catholic and her father is Protestant (not Irish). Her mother's mother would not allow any of the family to attend the wedding because the mother was marrying a Protestant. Nothing much changes...
    Hugh Wallace

    A humble wiseman once said, "Those who learn by the inch and talk by the yard should be kicked by the foot."

  13. #88
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    I don't have an Irish drop of blood in my body. 100% Scots (no doubt some pedant may take issue with that). Nor am I, personally, protestant or catholic. I don't have to be, I just have to live in that kind of area for it to have effect.

    In its way it is the same as the blatant racism and hate being espoused by many here. They don't turn it off.

    When you sit and rent your garments at the deaths on one side, while shrugging your shoulders and say that the other side deserves what it gets, and then some...this is what I mean by evolutionary peace.

    A certain amount of growing up is required. This is the 21st century. We do not live in the type of cultures anymore where it is acceptable (on a macro level) to promote violence as an answer to social issues or public concern.

    If your answer is to give one side everything it wants...how on earth do you expect to be taken seriously?
    M Johnston

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    Dex

    Since you made up your mind to boycott Israeli products. I have a few questions to you:
    a. How much research did you do about the situation in my area before making your decision ?
    b. Given that research, What is the actual solution you think Israel and the Palestinian people should reach ? And which parts of your suggestion do you believe to be a problem to each side ?

    Saying both sides should reach a peaceful solution is very easy. Trying to find an agreement both sides would accept is a different one. I'll give only two examples (many more issues exist):
    * So far, the Palestinian leadership and people have shown unwillingness to accept any agreement that doesn't include "The refugee right of return". Israel can't accept that, since it means the return of the refugees into the post agreement Israel, which would cease Israel's being a Jewish National state - it's very reason of being.
    * Many Israelis demand the right to have "The entire Jerusalem" including the holly parts under Israeli jurisdiction. The Palestinians demand it for themselves.


    So how exactly are you suggesting to solve the problem ?
    If you are saying - Just sit and find a peaceful solution negotiations. Then how can you blame only one side for not giving up ? Isn't the point of negotiations that both sides should compromise ?


    When you sit and rent your garments at the deaths on one side, while shrugging your shoulders and say that the other side deserves what it gets, and then some...
    I don't shrug my shoulders with regard to the death of non-combatants on the Palestinian side. I do care for my own more, but that doesn't mean I don't care for them. You might be surprised, but the Israeli press and public opinion demand the army to investigate such cases. In some of them, soldiers were arrested. In a group of particular cases, a group of soldiers were convicted for murder of civilian Palestinians - they will serve a long sentence in jail.
    After one of the last bombing in Gaza, after the Palestinians claimed there were 7 dead civilians in that bombing, the army released a video of the bombing, you could see the pilots waiting to shoot until they could hit only the target with no more vehicles around it. They shot a first missile, then stopped for a whole minute because another car passed by, and only then shot a second missile. That video proved the Palestinian claim the second missile blew a group of rescue people trying to assist the passengers was falsified !

    I do distinguish between combatants and non-combatants! I maintain that consideration even with regard to Israeli soldiers (though in this point, I belong to the minority - most here don't make this distinction with regard to Israelis). I think you couldn't place the same importance to the death of an Arab-Israeli waiter coming to work and being blown up, and his fellow Palestinian woman who died on her own decision - blowing the bomb hidden on her body, when she can see it will only kill civilian non-combatant population.

    It is the Palestinians who don't seem to have the same regard to human life. They actively attack civilians and non-combatants, while Israel is making an effort not to harm them.

    I wrote about this aspect more then once, yet you insist on ignoring it ! Either respond on topic, or stop raising the same claim over and over without basing it on anything.


    Amir
    Amir Krause

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    Default Re: Bush retreats from Mideast peace efforts

    When Israel announced last week that it would permit construction of hundreds of Jewish apartments in the West Bank, the State Department acknowledged that the action directly violated commitments Israel made in June to quit building settlements in Palestinian territory, a crucial part of the U.S.-backed "road map" for peace.


    But instead of a harsh rebuke, the State Department's reaction was low-key: "I can't really comment on it, other than to say we have made our policy clear, which is that, under the road map, Israel has made a commitment to stop settlement activity, and sticking to that commitment is important," deputy spokesman Adam Ereli said.
    A couple of things:

    I am neither pro-Israel nor pro-Palestinian, PLO, PA or other. I am pro-human being. Mr. Hartmann's post not withstanding, I make almost as much noise about China in Tibet and the "draconian" measures that my own country has taken to fight terrorism as one in my position can.

    I was generally curious about responses to my posting, in part because of my own "pro-humanity" opinions, and, in part, because of my own,inside knowledge of events in the Middle East-hence, the few questions I asked....

    It's pretty clear to me that the action of this wall-no matter what the ascribed or actual motivation is-is an inhumane act that will result in more control of the Palestinian people;I'm not convinced that that's not what the goal is, but that's neither here nor there. To me, both sides in this conflict have displayed more than 50 years of total intractability;there is no reasoning with the parties involved on either side, as evidenced by there taking actions that are contrary to agreements that they make, almost as soon as they've made them in some cases.The Palestinians-or , Arabs-would dearly love to march the colonial opressors-or Jewish State-into the sea, and the Jewish State has a right to exist, even if it means reneging on agreements and perpetrating another Holocaust. The Palestinians are "bent on genocide," though individuial suicide bombers is hardly the way to acocomplish this, especially when Israel continues to expand settlements that it has agreed to withdraw from, and tthe Palestinians want an independent state, even as they continue to deny themselves that very goal.....

    One last question, for my primary interest in this is not what it means to Israel or the Palestinian people, but what it means to the U.S.-like Amir, I see nothoing wrong with puting my own interests first: while there's little doubt that the U.S. has allied itself with Israel-that we are Israel's ally, is Israel our ally, and, if so, in what?

    Another question, or putting it another way: In what way is it in the U.S.'s interest for there to be an Israel or a Palestinian state?
    Aaron J. Cuffee


    As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
    - H.L. Mencken

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