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Thread: Police vs. Traditional Tonfa

  1. #16
    INFINOO Guest

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    This thread is getting off topic, perhaps we could start another thread on the knife combatives for law inforcement.

    To answer the original question the biggest difference beteeen the tonfa and the police baton is the 90 degree handle.
    To see a good clip of use check out Mel Gibson in "leathal weapon", plus a triangle choke to boot.
    Although leathal weapon its only a movie I beleive the usage of the baton was very realistic the "triangle" was text book gracie juijutsu .
    And if your one of those where "reality is the only game in town" tm check out the Rodney King
    beating/arrest.

    Regards

  2. #17
    Hissho Guest

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    Many, if not most officers are carrying knives these days, and many departments increasingly teach the use of the knife as a last ditch defense, in things like weapon retention situations.

    Getting in a knife fight with a suspect is not, and should not be, a primary consideration in police combatives. I guess anything could happen, but if a cop is in a knife fight with a suspect a number of things have gone wrong. What IS entirely feasible is that an officer may have to defend himself against a sudden assault with a knife. In so doing, immediately going for a firearm may not be the best option in protecting himself.

    Given the choice, I would prefer my .45 to knife against knife, in MOST situations. Where I would think you would have to go knife on knife will be the times you don't have a choice.

    I hope Bulldog meant to say 20 FEET and not 20 yards. Sounds like he is referring to the Tueller drill but mistook the distance.


    Kit Leblanc

  3. #18
    rinpoche Guest

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    I do a fair amount of training with police departments and I don't currently know any that are still using the PR24.

    As to those who think an asp is ineffective because it's light - hogwash. You can break bones with a pair of sunglasses or a trash bag, you just have to know how.

    The main problem that I see with the asp is the training. ASP training is designed to give minimal skill level that is least likely to get a department sued. They teach never to strike against joints or to the head (you know that stuff that really works in lethal force situations).

    I have seen video of LEOs disarming someone with a knife using an asp.

    Shooting somebody who has a knife when they are trying to stab you is a great idea. What if they have a knife but aren't trying to stab you, just refusing to put the knife down? What if they're in a crowd? What if they are only threatening to hurt themselves?

    I fully advocate a range of force options with a gun being at the top of that range. Empty hand training is crucial, as I have also seen video of cops who were shot and stabbed going for their gun instead of using empty hand tactics to give themselves time and distance to draw.

  4. #19
    Hissho Guest

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    Rinpoche-

    Unfortunately a LOT of us who actually do police work and have seen the asp fail do not have respect for the asp because it is too light. This includes some people that are highly effective with stick work. Training IS an issue, but so is the weapon itself.

    As for breaking bones with a trash bag and sunglasses - I have heard of that - is that anything like the Naked Kill I have heard about?

    Kit Leblanc,

    fearing he getting involved once again in another goat-rope discussions of what really does in work for "police" tactics.

  5. #20
    INFINOO Guest

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    Good points Kit. I agree that going for the gun in the mist of a knife assault "may" put the officer between a rock and a hard space. While I understand that "they" teach to J away, or angle off and deflect with the off hand(non gun). From my perspective this leaves the officer one essentially one handed with his weekest hand trying to controll the attackers strongest hand armed with knife. Even if the officer could/can get the gun out the chances for serious injury is great. Factor in the potential that the officer may be fighting in a hallway or between parked cars this tactic is even less desirable.

    While perhaps a little aggressive for some.
    I teach and have personally used the A.B.C knife defense meathod tm (Always be closing).
    Instead of backing away making distance "step in and win". One hand covers/grabs/smashes the attacking limb(usually same side as attack) and one hand goes for the chin/head/throat/collerbone with palm /web/tegatana of the hand..OO. I always say "Dont go for your weapon, go for the guy". In are unscientific test in training and on the street this tech /mind set is very effective.
    Anyone with any experience Irimi nage will know what Im talking about. Done right this tech makes the attacker land on the back of there head with head.

    At any rate I thought thay 20 foot rule is now 30 feet. Oh well, my question is how are the police supposed to interveiw someone from such great distances? By mega phone? Is it realistic to deal with potential suspect/citizens at such distances day in and day out. I heard it quoted (from the FBI stats) that most gun fights happen within 10 feet. And since with the holster and the training the police have bought into making them feel correctly or not that inside a considerable distance 20-30 feet there not going to get the gun out.
    Given these paremeters and equipment, I still think that reverse grip knife combatives with its lightening fast draw speeds quick draw meathods(fixed blade) is a no brainer for law enforcment. IF not not an option for close quater knife defense remember your A.B.C.

    Regards

  6. #21
    rinpoche Guest

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    Unfortunately a LOT of us who actually do police work and have seen the asp fail do not have respect for the asp because it is too light. This includes some people that are highly effective with stick work. Training IS an issue, but so is the weapon itself.
    I can't argue that the quality and design of a weapon contributes to it's ability to be used effectively. If you have a gun that jams, or a knife who's lock fails - that's no good. And, having a heavier impact weapon is more desirable - as long as carry and deployment don't restrict its use.

    I do think the #1 problem with an ASP is the training.

    As for breaking bones with a trash bag and sunglasses - I have heard of that - is that anything like the Naked Kill I have heard about?
    I have heard the term "naked kill" before but am not exactly sure what it refers to. We call this training simply "improvised weapons" and my peers and I enjoy playing with everything we can get our hands on.

    One time I was acting as an uke for my sensei who was doing a flexible weapons demo. There were 5 of us basically randomly attacking him and he was using a rope and tossing us about and locking us up, and striking with the rope (yes that is possible). One of my peers snuck up on him and snatched the rope out of his hands and tossed it away into the audience. Without missing a beat he pulled off his hat and started wrecking us with that.

    The basic idea is - never become a prisoner to your weapon. Options are good.

  7. #22
    Hissho Guest

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    Greg-

    Good post. I agree the "J away" is somewhat weak under most circumstances - I think it tends to work on the mat with a not-very- aggressive- attacker who the officer knows is about to attack.

    Otherwise your ABC is a good tactic, and what I do is mostly in line with your approach. I find that trying to angle out and gaining distance are assisted with an aggressive closing in and attacking of the attacker.

    30 foot rule vs. 21 foot rule is being talked about, I know, but I have not yet seen widespread reference to it, nor an embracing of it across the profession. In time, we probably will.

    Your point RE: interviewing people from 30 feet away is a good one and something which a lot of DT does not account for. Most officer asssaults and even shootings occur within arms reach. You have to be comfortable at very close quarters. Most DT tries to make up for the lack of this close contact effectiveness by artificial stances and rules of engagement that simply disappear the minute the real fight begins.

    Rinpoche-

    I was joking re: Naked Kill. It's from a very cheeseball novel by Trevanian.

    Your overall point about improvised weapons is an excellent one. I heard tell of a man who used a cell phone in the manner of his knife training to defend against a multiple attacker situation at a bar he worked in. The cell phone still works, but now it has some teeth marks.

    I just don't think your going to have an easy time of it breaking someones bones with a trash bag. Sounds too "dojo" to me. Now as an aid to shimewaza, I'm right with ya.

    Turned out to be a good discussion.



    Kit Leblanc

  8. #23
    rinpoche Guest

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    I just don't think your going to have an easy time of it breaking someones bones with a trash bag. Sounds too "dojo" to me. Now as an aid to shimewaza, I'm right with ya.
    It certainly ain't easy, but it's better than empty hands if it's all you have. Of course I don't walk around with a trash bag most of the time.

  9. #24
    Stephenjudoka Guest

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    In the UK the baton is our last means of defence. We are not armed with guns and we are not allowed to carry knives for defence.
    So we need a reliable baton that works for differing sizes, strengths, ages and sexes.
    Last edited by Stephenjudoka; 13th November 2003 at 19:42.

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