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Thread: Fusen ryu jujutsu

  1. #31
    Meik Skoss Guest

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    Mr. Williamson,

    I have to take issue with your statement that judo is practised *only* for shiai. Granted, it appears that most judo dojo in the U.S. have gone down that road, but by no means all of them train for "sport competition" to the exclusion of the broader art. A good example is Fukuda Sensei's dojo in Frisco; so is the dojo where I am training here in Jersey. I daresay that there are others. They might be they're not as thick on the ground as before, but they're there.

    You can get a darn good session of randori. If one's interested in what's the latest w/ re: effective tournament waza, it is available. You can also get a really good lesson in newaza as effective self-defense, along with a lot of pre-WWII techniques seldom seen in these times. Leg locks? What kind do you want? They're here! If it's other kinshi waza you're interested in, they're also available; you need but ask. It's best, however, to have a rather high pain threshold (my neck still hurts from a session last Tuesday).

    I like to think of my dojo as one of the bastions of "judo as it was and ought to be" -- good physical training, mixed with folks one'd be happy to introduce to the family. There are no thugs and a lot of stand-up guys. Some of them may be a little rough around the edges, but, hey, it's a tough art. I can think of a lot worse places to train, and not many as good. (My two-bits worth of opinion.)

    Cheers,

  2. #32
    MarkF Guest

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    I did have a post in mind, but I can't say it any better than did Meik, so my hat is off to cooler heads prevailing. It's a fault. I'm trying to get over it.

    Mark

  3. #33
    MarkF Guest

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    BTW: "...judo police."

    Is that anything like a Koryu Kop?

  4. #34
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default Combat Newaza

    Seems the question of Fusen-ryu does continue to pop up from time to time. Matthew, search the jujutsu threads a while back and the same questions were asked, as it sounds like they were pre-Crash.

    I have been lucky enough to secure video of a short demo of Fusen-ryu, by a group (not the only one) that does Iai as well. NO THE VIDEO IS NOT AVAILABLE FOR REPRODUCTION.

    Anyway, the hot-for-newaza guys (myself included) would not be happy with it, as it shows NO newaza, just standing jujutsu (albeit done with a little more *oomph* than you see with a lot of koryu demos) and some pins, some armed kogusoku type stuff. It sounds like Ed is absolutely correct, they practice a lot more than just newaza. But who knows how much they focus on it now? I can't tell from a very short video of a demo, someone has to go and look around and find them.

    Okay, that being said, the above is verging on becoming one of those "I don't know what I am talking about but I'll post anyway" threads, and I do not want to be guilty of one of those.

    I do not know this, but for the sake of argument, isn't it possible, that as Ed points out "six years later" we never heard of the Fusen ryu anymore, because they were no longer very effective against Judo or whatever other schools after the guy that beat the Kodokan folks passed on (Tanabe, I believe his name was).

    We need to look at what they are doing NOW to determine if it is very effective. It will do no one any good to practice Fusen-ryu simply because it is a koryu and does newaza (the anti-BJJ, anyone?) and beat the Kodokan......how many years ago was it? Talk about resting on laurels!!!



    To address an issue that has been raised and countered, as well as some nuances, I might be able to add a little bit. I've done BJJ and Judo, some of it mixed with teachers that did both. I am also a Law Enforcement Ground Control Instructor, and have some opinions on the use of BJJ and Judo newaza for real life encounters.

    In my limited experience, BJJ has very little different in it from Judo newaza, that is Judo newaza with all the old techniques that used to be allowed and techniques for fighting that are preserved in other forms. I think BJJ just has the primary focus on the ground.

    But it is all in that focus. In the main, most Judo clubs seem to be modern shiai oriented, as is my club (but not me!!!). The focus is almost entirely on tachiwaza and tournaments. In randori, many people immediately go to turtle and simply say "the ref would call ma-te" and any chance at newaza (which I almost always go for) is over.

    But there is one senior black belt at least who loves newaza and is very effective at it, and is indulgent enought to mostly do newaza when we get paired up. His comment on newaza is "There are four ways to win at Judo, and three of them are on the ground." He states the emphasis is simply with the particular club, and ours is not a newaza club. Some, maybe very few, very much are. One spinoff club in the Portland metro area is a Judo group that focusses on newaza and vale tudo, and its members fight in Judo tournaments, BJJ tournaments, and has guys preparing for Pancration fights come in to train. Still, Ed's argument that if you have to go looking for it, etc... is pretty much accurate. Meik's club, for example, sounds like a rare gem.

    The only test of "which is better" on the mats would be to match a highly skilled BJJ man with a highly skilled Judo newaza SPECIALIST. I think under Judo rules the Judoka would win (BJJ does not stress escaping pins), under submission rules I think it would be a tossup, frankly. And the Judoka would have far more effective standup ability in addition to newaza skills. This matchup happened in a recent Abu Dhabi Submission Tournament , a sandan Kodokan Judoka who also fought shooto beat Saulo Riberio, whom many consider to be among the finest traditional BJJ practitioners in the world, to win his division. This was a no gi match, but since I consider that a disadvantage for both, they really had to adapt their skills to the environment.

    Take your AVERAGE (not newaza oriented) Judoka and your average BJJ-er, and I think giving up a rank or two the BJJ-er would win on the ground with submission rules (but time it takes to get rank is another issue, and the BJJ purple belt may have far more experience than a Judo shodan).


    The "combat" focus of BJJ is a misnomer. BJJ is a sport based on particular rules that favor that type of combat.

    That being said, while I agree real fights start on the feet and a good hard throw will end it quick, they very often do go to the ground if the fight is in earnest, or if either party is attempting to actually control the other. In police work, fights, meaning with a motivated, resisting subject, virtually always go to the ground as after all that is what cops are trained to do, take the guy down and control to cuff. Both BJJ and Judo as generally practiced require modification for this.

    CERTAIN elements of BJJ (as in Judo) are counterproductive to street fighting. For example, "Pulling Guard" is the last thing I would do intentionally on the street. It is effective as a last ditch measure, as there is some offence still available in this position, but I will point out that when striking is part of the game, the guard may not be where you want to be. Several highly qualified people have been bludgeoned senseless by a man IN THEIR GUARD in MMA fights, and this WILL happen on the street.

    The guard is far better than the Turtle, though, which is suicidal for real fighting and is sadly what a lot of Judoka seem to go for first. Kashiwazaki criticizes the scramble for the turtle position in his Masterclass Osaekomi book and seems to be arguing for the guard. And he is speaking about Judo competition, because there is at least still offence from a guard.

    You also do NOT want to be working from the bottom (pinned) in a real situation if you can at all help it, particularly if either you or your opponent is armed, and submission style wrestling under BJJ rules conditions people to work from the bottom before working from the top. Remember the koryu roots...you get pinned and then your throat is slit and your head is taken.

    Since Judo focusses more on pinning and gaining the top position, I think Judo is better adapted (you do have to change many of the techniques) to real fighting when you have a top or pinning position. If you do end up on the bottom and all you want is OUT, the BJJ guy may take too long to work out from there based on what happens regularly in his training. I am learning that on the mat in Judo, do EVERYTHING YOU CAN to train yourself to get out of a pin. This is very good training for real world fighting. Everything except TURTLE that is....

    Sorry went on so long...

    Kit
    Last edited by Kit LeBlanc; 12th August 2001 at 01:03.

  5. #35
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    Thumbs up

    Great post, Kit! It's a pleasure to have someone with your experience in law enforcement discuss the values and vulnerabilities of groundfighting. I have always wondered about the use of the turtle myself, as it always seemed like an invitation for soccer practice on one's ribs and head. One thing I find myself wondering, though I know this has been discussed previously at one time, is how edged weapons change the dynamic of groundfighting. One of the people I train with feels that the counter for this is cross training in arts that emphasise disarms etc, such as Silat or Jeet Kune Do, or better yet, become qualified with a legal concealed firearm. Both of these responses presume the prescence of the blade being known when both parties are still standing and at a certain range. How does groundfighting adjust to the sudden apppearance of a blade when both parties are on the ground?
    Krzysztof M. Mathews
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    When something wicked this way comes

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  6. #36
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default Generalizing myself

    Reading my above post I think I am guilty of generalizing myself somewhat in comparing Brazilian jujutsuka and Judoka, and some practitioners of either may very much fight like the other.

    My overall point is that Judo and BJJ need some heavy modification (or I should say, ya need to practice putting the kinshi waza, as Meik says, back in) for real fighting usage. Still I feel they are among the best methods to train for such real world usage IF TRAINED with combative application in mind. I have trained in BJJ, Judo and traditional grappling, traditional Chinese fighting arts and sport striking/kicking. NONE of the latter has given me the confidence and ability in handling combative subjects, including armed persons, that I derive from regular training in BJJ and Judo. I re-read Ed's posts, and while part of me thinks they are a troll, I see that I agree pretty much with some of what he is saying, and disagree with some other stuff.


    Originally posted by Kolschey
    Great post, Kit! It's a pleasure to have someone with your experience in law enforcement discuss the values and vulnerabilities of groundfighting. I have always wondered about the use of the turtle myself, as it always seemed like an invitation for soccer practice on one's ribs and head. One thing I find myself wondering, though I know this has been discussed previously at one time, is how edged weapons change the dynamic of groundfighting. One of the people I train with feels that the counter for this is cross training in arts that emphasise disarms etc, such as Silat or Jeet Kune Do, or better yet, become qualified with a legal concealed firearm. Both of these responses presume the prescence of the blade being known when both parties are still standing and at a certain range. How does groundfighting adjust to the sudden apppearance of a blade when both parties are on the ground?
    Let me preface by saying I am not a blade guy. I have some Chinese and Japanese style blade training, and some LEO training based mainly on Filipino weapons. I am still looking for that art that goes well with Judo and trains primarily in shorter edged weapons and batons (i.e. shortswords, jutte, etc.) and which trains in a manner which includes very close quarters (grappling) and gives realistic results. Learning naginata and spears and stuff is neat, but has little direct application for what I need it for, and the Filipino arts have some good stuff but just aren't for me.

    The only live disarm I have ever done has been when a gal that I was about 2' away from bent down and picked up a kitchen knife (that her boyfriend had thrown at her) from a closet. Seeing the blade coming up I simply grabbed her hand with my left and the blade with my right and stripped it right out of her hand. I touched the blade but was not (luckily) cut. I do not believe that she was intending to cut me, but I really didn't have the luxury of thinking that out at the time.

    I have grappled only once with a guy with a knife in his hand, and he had just closed it prior to my baton strike (missed!!! hence looking for that short weapon art... ) I used the baton to assist in taking him down, and concentrated then on pinning him in a sort of half Uki gatame/half Tate Shiho, with my knee placed on the inside of his right bicep, my weight pressing right into the nerve, the goal being to immobilize the arms. I had him in such a way that both arms were trapped, which is exactly what I strive for if things go to the ground in real life. Luckily I hit him hard enough on the take down that the knife went flying and was out of the picture.

    To address Kolschey's points, I think that in real world close grappling, the bad guys arms and hands will be what reaches for his weapons, or for mine, so that is what I want controlled. My own arms, elbows, even my head if absolutely necessary, but *especially* knees are used to pin the head, neck or ideally one of the arms, and I will snatch up the other one for a lock (the Kimura version of ude garami, my bad guy on his stomach or side with my knee pinning his opposite arm is a fantastic technique for control...it keeps the head up, you are sitting on the bad guys neck and head, and it is easy to transition to other positions.) Basically pinning one of his arms with my knee frees up both my hands, and I can control the other arm with my left (preferably) and deploy my own weapons or handcuffs with the right. I would probably use the same sorts of methods if he was on me with a knife and we went down.

    I shudder to think it, but a halfway decent Judoka, BJJ-er, or wrestler should be able to take his man down, control his body and limbs there while limiting the man's head movement and visual field, and produce a knife without the man knowing it to begin some street surgery. Being able to so effectively control a man's position and movement is a very bad thing if you are the one controlled....

    Interestingly, a very good knife defense method showing up in LEO training, and once used successfully by a BJJ-er against a pair of knife wielding assailants in Australia, caught on tape yet, is to drop on your back and use your feet to kick, block the blade (hopefully you have shoes or boots on) and/or blade arm, and keep the guy off of you. LE wise it also gives you time and distance to draw the firearm and shoot the guy. The knife wielder has to adapt to his primary targets being taken away instantly and buys a few seconds. Not the best method, surely, but it works very well in training and has in certain live circumstances. I have seen a very similar method taught in a koryu art as well!!!

    I am not big on disarms at distance. My method for that is a .45!

    Check out the tanto dori thread in the Aikido forum for some other takes on the same subject.

    Kit
    Last edited by Kit LeBlanc; 12th August 2001 at 02:11.

  7. #37
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    Default Fusen Ryu

    Hi Kit,
    Thanks for putting me on to this. This tread has gone so far off, I doubt that the guy who brought up the first question even reads this anymore. I'm not saying that it hasn't been extremely entertaining though.
    I'm sorry to say that I don't think you will find Fusen Ryu in the U.K. . My instructor who has studied under and received a license to start his own "Fusen Ryu Osaka Bunkei" from the present "Honkei Soke, Inoeu Kazutoshi, said that he doesn't know of any (other than myself) foreigners who have studied Fusen Ryu. There may be a Japanese instructor in the U.K. but I really doubt it.
    That's the bad news. The good news is, there is no secret "newaza" in Fusen Ryu. We beat Kodokan because they weren't any good at newaza at that time. Though we practice a lot more ground work at my Fusen dojo than we do at my Sekiguchi Ryu dojo, I think you would be better off doing Judo or BJJ if you want to concentrate on ground work. As Kit observed in the video I sent him, there is mostly stand up, take to ground techniques. Though much of the stand up and kneeling waza we do can be applied when wrestling (there are a lot of moves in Fusen that I am taught at Shooto as well). You should be able to find the same Fusen newaza in Kosen Judo. There are a few small "secret points" that I've been taught but I doubt that the other styles don't have the same "secret points" Just nobody talks about them .
    "if Fusen Ryu is so hot, why don't we hear about it after they beat the Kodokan?" The answer is, they weren't hot enough. None of the Koryu were. Everything turned to Judo. Just like the Kenjutsu schools all turned to Kendo. Even the almighty Sekiguchi Ryu had to give in to Judo. The soke of this art as well ended up teaching first, Judo and second, Sekiguchi Ryu.
    It was a change in the times here in Japan. Koryu had to give in to the "DO" arts. Not that Koryu was no good or couldn't win in a fight. But more that you didn't need to win a fight anymore. Koryu had lost it's usefulness. It's sad to think that it's usefulness has been revised. (ah, before you guys start to crucify me about the usefulness statement, I realize it's a broad word. But that was and still is the view of the general public here in Japan). The bucks (or Yen so to speak) were (and still are) in Judo and Kendo.
    As for present Fusen schools, the soke is in Okayama, and there is a bunkei in Osaka and Hiroshima and there will be a school in the U.S. next year.
    As for the Judo vs BJJ thing, most of the Shooto guys here have had judo experience. One of my instructors, Nakao Jutaro also came from Judo. He'll be fighting in the UFC in September. He's beaten a former UFC champ, Pat Militich and a UFC undefeated Lavern Clark so far. Though I must say what he does rarely looks like Judo, his killer technique is his Triangle choke.
    Most of the Shooto people prefer BJJ over Judo but..... so what?
    Hope the info on Fusen was en lighting.
    Scott Laking

  8. #38
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    Default

    Scott:
    Its good to see you joining these discussion.

    Carl McClafferty

  9. #39
    Benjamin Peters Guest

    Default

    Dear Matthew,

    To help address your original question, unfortunately I do not have information with to Fusen Ryu.

    However your interest in the 'ground-work' aspect of combat maybe addressed to some degree be going to the below link (which provides videos on Kosen Judo).

    A quote from the web page:
    "Nihon Kosen Judo
    Kosen judo is a form of judo adopted by the major high schools and technical schools during the Meji Era (1868 – 1914). It emphasizes newaza (ground techniques) such as controls, joint locks and strangles. This is the style of judo that was taught to the Gracies in Brazil. "

    http://budogu.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page42.html

  10. #40
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    Default Kosen Judo taught to Gracies?

    I believe that this is incorrect. Maeda is of an earlier generation - the turn of the century, in fact, long before there was Kosen judo established. Kodokan judo, in the early days, incorporated information from a variety of sources (Fusen Ryu, among them, as I read here), and in addition, many of the people who joined the Kodokan brought with them the skills from their own ryu. The Kansai area was known for their groundwork - it is my understanding that Takenouchi Ryu was a significant influence here. In addition, people kept studying - innovating - developing new techniques. Maeda among them. It is my understanding that Maeda accompanied several higher ranking teachers, among them Tomita in the early 1900's to America. At the end of a several hour demo in the hot sun (at West Point, I believe), a hefty gent got up and asked Tomita what he would do "if I did THIS" and tackled him. This was the impetus to lead Maeda on his barnstorming tour (sort of a musha shugyo), taking on all comers and honing his own skills against wrestlers, etc. In the process, he developed his ground fighting skills to a very high degree. (Years later, when he returned to Japan, one of his students was Mochizuki Minoru, who was among his many accomplishments, known for his newaza.)

    I have seen no information about what, in detail, he taught Carlos Gracie, but he was apparently only in Brazil a few years. It is probable that in that time, he emphasized newaza - perhaps because it won him his own matches, and also, as the great judo newaza specialist, Kashiwazaki Katsuhiko puts says, the development of throwing techniques is limited by natural talent, whereas groundfighting improves based on hard work and repetition.

    Kosen judo, thus, can almost be regarded as a kind of parallel evolution to BJJ - at roughly the same historical period, (1920's-30's) two groups, for their own reasons specialized in newaza. Kimura, for example, is considered one of Kosen's own.

    An added point is that BJJ continued to be profoundly influenced by judo over the years. Kodokan 8th dan, Kastriot Mehdi (a student of Kimura) has a dojo in Rio, and he has taught a number of the younger generation of BJJ "lions." (He was a member, for a few years of Carlos/Helio's dojo when he, an accomplished judoka first arrived in Brazil from France, but became profoundly estranged. He has willingly taught a number of their students/family, etc.). One other example is the "triangle choke" was brought into BJJ by a student of Rolls Gracie (I believe), who according to the account, found it in a judo book, and started choking out all his dojo mates when they'd "pass the guard" in the way that Rorian Gracie shows it on his original tapes.

    With respect

    Ellis Amdur

  11. #41
    Benjamin Peters Guest

    Talking ;)

    I am a man of few words.

  12. #42
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default Nailed it...

    Ellis nailed it.

    You'll find some BJJ and Judo websites stating that BJJ is a continuation of Kosen judo, Maeda was a Kosen judo guy, etc. Until recently I thought the same thing because I had read it so much, but when ya look at the dates, it simply cannot be....

    Most Maeda chronologies have him in New York in 1904, with a dojo in '05. The Kosen tournaments didn't start, according to Kashiwazaki's Ippon Masterclass Osaekomi book, 'til, 1914, and the Kodokan rules change to avoid "pure newaza judo" came in 1925. Maeda is usually noted as being in Brazil around 1916, and by the mid to late 1920's the Gracies were learning from Maeda. He died in Brazil in 1941. He was given a posthumous 7 dan in 1967 or 1968.

    What he did teach probably came a lot more from him standing 165-168 cm and weighing 70 kilos and having to adapt his judo to fight bigger, stronger Westerners in challenge matches and pro-wrestling. He undoubtedly went for simpler takedowns and groundwork, where, contrary to popualr belief, if there is a disparity in skill the smaller, skillful man has a better chance.

    Kit

  13. #43
    Yamantaka Guest

    Question Re: MOCHIZUKI STUDENT OF MAEDA?

    Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
    In the process, he developed his ground fighting skills to a very high degree. (Years later, when he returned to Japan, one of his students was Mochizuki Minoru, who was among his many accomplishments, known for his newaza.)
    Ellis Amdur
    YAMANTAKA : Dear Ellis San,
    That's very surprising to me. Do you have precise confirmation on that statement?
    Best

  14. #44
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    Default re Mochizuki

    I don't mean that Maeda was his only teacher. Mochizuki studied most centrally, I believe, with Mifune. I recall reading the statement about Maeda in a book by John Stevens, title forgotten, but it was about Funakoshi, Kano, and Ueshiba.

    Ellis Amdur

  15. #45
    Yamantaka Guest

    Default Re: re Mochizuki

    Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
    I don't mean that Maeda was his only teacher. Mochizuki studied most centrally, I believe, with Mifune. I recall reading the statement about Maeda in a book by John Stevens, title forgotten, but it was about Funakoshi, Kano, and Ueshiba.

    Ellis Amdur
    YAMANTAKA : Thank you for your answer, Ellis San! I know a bit about Mochizuki's background and teachers and I have the book by John Stevens ("3 BUDO MASTERS"), even if I do not consider Stevens Sensei a very trustable historian...
    I hoped you had further comprobatory data on Maeda teaching Mochizuki.
    Anyway, thank you again.
    Best regards

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