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Thread: Fusen ryu jujutsu

  1. #61
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    My name is Mike Geery. I live in Tampa, Florida where I practice Brazilian jujitsu. I also have a black belt in Aikido under Mitsugi Saotome.

    www.tampabjj.com

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    Default Mike

    Thank you for your quick answer!!

    BTW..i hope that you found the information about Takamura sensei interesting.

    BTW...i would really want to know about the evolution from Kosen Judo to BJJ, i don´t know the whole story and some people invoking and claiming that BJJ comes from Ju Jutsu well... IMHO, makes me a bit shocked...could you please e-mail me or send a PM with those details. I would really appreciate it. I always thought that Koma was a Judo guy not a Ju Jutsu practitioner.

    Thanks in advance.

    óscar recio
    "Any man who refers to himself as a "master" or knowlingly allows his students to refer to him as a master, isn´t one"
    Takamura Yukiyoshi
    http://www.dojotanabe.com

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    No problem Oscar. Since I work all day on the computer, it's easy.

    Koma was one of the students Kano sent over to be trained in Fusen Ryu so Judo could have the technigues. Kosen judo was set up in high schools and colleges around Japan because it was so effective for competition. However the matches ended up taking too long and most of the time was on the ground. Kano changed the rules limiting the ground time and many of the kosen judo senior students like Koma became very upset at this and there was internal conflicts within the kodakan. Kano sent many of the disruptive students abroad. Koma was one of them.

    Koma first traveled to the US with another senior judoka. This judoka was defeated in a match in the US and Koma went his separate way. He eventually made his way down to Brazil (during this time he was fighting in street brawls). It was then he taught "jujitsu" (as he called it because he felt the techniques were more from Fusen Ryu jujitsu then Kodokan Judo) to Carlos Gracie Sr. Carlos Sr. taught his nephew Helio and from there it spread to the family, then the world. The Brazilians basically had 60 years to develop and strenghten the original ground techniques they were taught before really openinig it outside of Brazil.

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    Oscar-

    BJJ is linked to jujutsu through Judo.

    Maeda was a judoka. He was studying at the Kodokan at the time when the matches with Tanabe occurred (c. 1900). He most likely would have been exposed to Fusen-ryu through the fact that Tanabe was involved with Kodokan supposedly teaching his newaza after he defeated Kodokan representatives.

    Supposedly Yokoyama Sakujiro was Maeda's main teacher. Tanabe appears in Yokoyama's Judo Kyohan demonstrating various newaza holds and submissions, so there is some documentation of a possible link. Of course, based on the same information it is more probable that the jujutsu Maeda did was Tenjin Shinyo ryu. That is, the jujutsu he did that was not "judo." Back then we are really splitting hairs by differentiating judo and jujutsu - something that the BJJ community seems not to grasp.

    I'd like to see a documented source that has Kano "sending" Maeda to learn Fusen-ryu.

    Kosen Judo has no connection with Maeda, he had left Japan (he was in New York by 1904-1905) by the time Kosen Judo started becoming popular (c. 1914 per Kashiwazaki).
    Last edited by Hissho; 6th January 2006 at 04:06.

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    Default Kit

    Thanks for your comments.

    The thing is that what i woudl really want to know and understand is how the transition was developed from the Fusen Ryu techniques, that i imagine were mostly suwari waza, to the ground techniques as seen in Kodokan Judo or Brazilian Ju Jutsu.

    In a lot of MA forum and MA comunities people are claiming and supporting the concept and idea of Classical ju jutsu having ground work and grappling style like the modern MMA disciplines. From what i study and practise is quite wrong conception and understanding of the historical compendium and mindset of old Koryu schools.

    My own theory focuss on weapons. Not fighting with the idea of drawing a weapon or having the possibility to draw a weapon or use it, IMHO, is one of the main aspect that influenced the changing and "evolution" of the ground techniques. Again, IMHO, i think that most of the people talking about ground techniques are using the concept of people indoor, sitting, sleeping or something similar that, with the use of the "ground techniques" or i would say "strategies", will be able to deal with an attacker in a controlled close space. Even with the pressence of multiple attackers those techniques were designed for short-time responses to be able to draw a weapon, be standing again and deal with more attackers coming.

    The exclusion of weapons due to historical circumstances changed drastically the mindset and curriculum of a lot of Arts, and again IMHO, there´s no better way to defend against a weapon that know how a weapon works. The better you fight with a knife the better you understand how to defend against one. Of course the same would be applied to Ne waza, the better you are in ne waza the better you are able to defend yourself against a situation with a ground fighter But the thing is a different one.

    For what i´ve been researching the modern grappling/ne waza used in BJJ and modern Ju Jutsu got no connection with any old/classical/Kroyu style of ju jutsu and, being the hysterical/semantic zealot i am i associate Ju Jutsu with the Japanese ju jutsu. I know that is my problem and, maybe, i´m tto strict but Ju Jutsu would be better designed to refer to a specific discipline with a specific historical background and foundations (core principles).

    Ne waza/grappling is just one aspect of an Art, except if the Art is solidly focussed in it but calling it Ju Jutsu makes people believe that Ju Jutsu of the past looks like the modern one., I know, i know...i´m a silly dreamer...bffffffffffffff

    Anyway...going back to my question. Is there any chance to know or look after information to see or understand the evolution from Fusen ryu to Kodokan/Kosen Judo to the modern ground technqiues? Why exactly the Gracie call themselves Gracie Ju Jutsu? just because Maeda used the name Ju Jutsu? I don´t really care about if they use the term Ju Jutsu or not, is they own bussines so i´m not attacking anybody or any system and claiming, as some people over the forums did that "my ju jutsu is the real one and not yours"..

    Kit,
    If Maeda studied TJSR i would like to know more about this specific background and see where the Atemi part is on the BJJ.

    Again guys, sorry for being so "sinlge minded" or "foolishly rigid". Maybe i´m too much on nomenclature.

    Thanks for your attention and inputs.

    Sincerely,

    Óscar Recio
    "Any man who refers to himself as a "master" or knowlingly allows his students to refer to him as a master, isn´t one"
    Takamura Yukiyoshi
    http://www.dojotanabe.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Óscar Recio
    Why exactly the Gracie call themselves Gracie Ju Jutsu? just because Maeda used the name Ju Jutsu?
    Until fairly recently Judo and Jiu-Jitsu were used fairly interchangeably in the west. Mostly they described the same thing: Kodokan Judo, or eclectic styles based on Kodokan Judo. You only have to look at old books, training manuals, newspaper articles and adverts to realise this. I think the term Judo only really became the dominant currency after its inclusion in the Olympics.

    In the early years of Judo, I think the same is true in Japan - i.e. a lot of folks referred to Kodokan Judo as jujutsu.

    So Maeda comes to the west and calls what he does Jiu-Jitsu, because that's the term in common usage at the time. And the people he fights or teaches understand that point of reference. That's really all there is to it. I have seen no verifiable sources that state that what he was doing was anything other than Kodokan Judo.

    As Kit succunctly put it:
    Back then we are really splitting hairs by differentiating judo and jujutsu - something that the BJJ community seems not to grasp.
    Now, the Gracies probably just stuck with the term Jiu-Jitsu because that's what they were told it was called. Later on, it served to differentiate their style from the global spread of Judo. This is no bad thing, as BJJ is NOT the same thing as Judo (despite what some Judo zealots claim). But it does not imply that the Gracies had some kind of direct link to Fusen or any other koryu - except via the Kodokan.
    Cheers,

    Mike
    No-Kan-Do

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    just in relation to bjj and judo, i understand that leglocks are not allowed in competition judo(i think they feature in the higher dan syalabus) yet they feature in the bjj sylabus, who this have come about through some vague link from bjj to a koryu style. doesnt sambo have strong judo heritage and yet they specialise to a degree in leg locks. I understand that its a military thing if you break a guys leg in combat it takes three men out of the field becuse two have to carry him.
    any thoughts
    Oisin Goodall

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    What Mike said.

    Oscar-

    I wouldn't look to define BJJ by "classical jujutsu" standards. BJJ comes from modern judo, but at a time when modern judo was closer to its jujutsu root. Even Kimura, when fighting Helio Gracie, said it reminded him of old style judo. It changed with the circumstances of challenge fights and professional wrestling bouts common in Brazil.

    However, having had the benefit of having your SYR teacher do his work on me, I think you would be surprised that BJJ may have more in common with SYR than Judo would in terms of how it is approached and the physical manifestation of principles. The good BJJ guys I have rolled with (i.e. brown belts, black belts) are softer on the ground than the judoka of corresponding rank. In some cases FAR softer. They use more techniques, they have many more ways of getting into them, and they are less interested in a pin than maintaining a control position. That may sound odd, but what it translates to is more fluid control versus powerful, solid hold downs that don't move. This is not true of every case, but in general it is what I have experienced.

    BJJ does not borrow its atemi from classical JJ, though if you look at some of their "self defense" it appears like Judo goshin jutsu. If you ever saw some "old school" BJJ stuff, you might be surprised (knuckles punches to vital points to loosen up arms for locks, etc. )

    But by and large BJJ draws from boxing and muay Thai for its atemi.

    I would also hesitate to say that there is nothing in classical jujutsu that resembles Judo/BJJ groundwork. Certainly the focus is different, but it will also be different between a Sengoku era battlefield JJ and an Edo period self-defense jujutsu. There is still a thread that runs through them. I can think of several techniques that I have learned that are found in BJJ. I have several times mentioned a technique from one style that involved a tomoe nage, followed by attempts at a collar choke, which the defender straight arms to defeat and gets hit with juji gatame. Kiraku-ryu has a throw followed by dropping into a juji gatame. The little Araki-ryu I did had several "last ditch" battlefield survival moves which were very similar to BJJ moves, done against a knife. Which is another reason I have often pointed out that when you take judo and BJJ, adapt them for the fact that you are wearing weapons or your adversary may be carrying a weapon, you often end up with stuff that looks very similar to classical JJ.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raspado
    No problem Oscar. Since I work all day on the computer, it's easy.

    Koma was one of the students Kano sent over to be trained in Fusen Ryu so Judo could have the technigues. Kosen judo was set up in high schools and colleges around Japan because it was so effective for competition. However the matches ended up taking too long and most of the time was on the ground. Kano changed the rules limiting the ground time and many of the kosen judo senior students like Koma became very upset at this and there was internal conflicts within the kodakan. Kano sent many of the disruptive students abroad. Koma was one of them.

    Koma first traveled to the US with another senior judoka. This judoka was defeated in a match in the US and Koma went his separate way. He eventually made his way down to Brazil (during this time he was fighting in street brawls). It was then he taught "jujitsu" (as he called it because he felt the techniques were more from Fusen Ryu jujitsu then Kodokan Judo) to Carlos Gracie Sr. Carlos Sr. taught his nephew Helio and from there it spread to the family, then the world. The Brazilians basically had 60 years to develop and strenghten the original ground techniques they were taught before really openinig it outside of Brazil.
    I apologise for quoting the entire post but this is written very much in the style of a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu stylist and is so misinformed I had to say something. I do very much agree with Kit concerning what Mitsuyo Maeda taught.

    First of all, Kano never "sent" anyone anywhere. He recommended students to other teachers because he felt they could further their education by doing so. No one was made to go anywhere. He was a part of the Kodokan the rest of his life and still is (see bust of Maeda at the Kodokan Judo Institute in Tokyo). The Kodokan graded Mits. Maeda twice while he was in South America, to yondan then to godan. If he was disruptive, then what about Yamashita Yoshiaki? He was actually arrested and jailed for beating at least one man because he went beyond necessary self-defense from the attack but did not stop his counter attack after the man lay prone. This did not sit well with Kano. Did Yamashita go to Washington to teach jiudo to the US President as punishment?

    As for the rules of contests, well, whose rules were they? It was Kano who stated that they needed some rules so to be able to tell them who won. This was noted at the first major challenge match in the young life of the Kodokan. Only one judge could say whether or not one could or could not continue. That was the only rule of that match[es] other than those that were agreed to between all contestants. But don't forget that even in the misinterpreted win by Fusen-ryu over the Kodokan that the vast majority of matches were draws. The idea was not to win the matches but to prevent the superior nage waza of the Kodokan from being used. Most of the fusen-ryu challengers simply dropped to the floor as soon as the two would get close to each other. Did the Kodokan win? No. Did Fusen-ryu win? Well, they did prevent most of the combatants of the Kodokan from imposing their tachi-waza therefore it was a loss by the Kodokan but not a win, necessarily, by the fusen-ryu. The combatants from Fusen played for the draw and caught the Kodokan with its shitagi down. While it has always been stated as a loss, it really was a draw, but more importantly, the idea of practical Newaza had begun to take shape. Certainly fusen played a role, but so did free style wrestling of the West.

    Yes, a judo player lost who was traveling with Maeda in a match Maeda refused to fight. Why did he refuse? What is the source which says this person and Maeda split based on the man losing a single match? That just doesn't make sense, and there is no real proof that was the reason. Both were looking to wrestle professionally so to make a decent living and they may indeed have split for this reason, each taking a different road. Also, you have left out all the time Maeda spent in Cuba, Spain, where he supposedly picked up the name Conde Koma, and the time spent in Mexico. Maeda also challenged Jack Johnson to a match but Johnson wanted too much money up front. This happened while Maeda was in Cuba and Johnson in Canada (I think). As Kit points out, Maeda was a Judoka. While the amount of time he spent training with Carlos Gracie is not known for sure, what makes this point of contention interesting is that in Carlos Gracie's books, two published in the 1940s, were almost entirely based on nage waza. If Brazilian jiu Jitsu began as a ground sport, perhaps Carlos (Jr.) and Helio split on this point as is rumored. Helio learned what he learned while watching Carlos train in his dojo, and it is Helio who is known for the groundwork, not Carlos, at least as far as we know. One of Carlos' books is still available if you look around.

    Jiu Jitsu=Judo or jiu no michi or yawara no michi, kanji are the same, romaji is still in flux. Maeda called Jiudo jiu jitsu because that is how most referred to it. For that reason, BJJ stuck with that interpretation. Later in
    California, Rorion Gracie "sort of" copyrighted the name but not for the reason many believe he did. In fact, he only copyrighted the name of his Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Academy "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" but he also made clear that what he taught was "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu" not Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

    How did Kano "change" the rules to shorten ground time other than, perhaps, of limiting the time in a non-submission hold down, or pin? We do not know for sure that it was his rule, but what we do know is that he was the person who suggested some type of rule "...so they will know who won." Matches had no time limits, and the only rules during the early Kodokan challenge matches was that a single judge would be the one who decided when a player or players could not continue. For the most part, matches remained unlimited up to WWII, and beyond. Even when I began judo training in the early 1960s, only matches for juniors had a time limit, but it certainly changed shortly after that. After all, shortening matches to only one ippon throw did the trick in most cases. Before that, two ippon were necessary to win a match or submission or by timed pin or hold down.

    It is pure speculation at best that Maeda taught fusen-ryu technique and therefore the reason he called it "jujitsu." The Kodokan did remember him with a bust calling him one of the greatest newaza men in Kodokan history." That is very long leap of faith to suggest he taught anything other than Kodokan Judo.

    In any organization there will be conflicts but in Maeda's day, it was growing but not that big. There were conflicts within the Kodokan over such things as a time limit in shi-ni-ai? What time limit? What was the rule of that day concerning newaza? until the 1980s, newaza was allowed to continue unabted as long as there was progress, and the only "rule" was a minimum time of thirty seconds to win via a pin again, this does read very much like a BJJ web site.


    Mark

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    Hi Mark,

    Just to add a little bit about this interesting although for my taste a little bit confusing post.

    Not that I know so much about Fusen-ryu in the first place but I have picked up some things during the years.

    You state:


    "But don't forget that even in the misinterpreted win by Fusen-ryu over the Kodokan that the vast majority of matches were draws. The idea was not to win the matches but to prevent the superior nage waza of the Kodokan from being used. Most of the fusen-ryu challengers simply dropped to the floor as soon as the two would get close to each other. Did the Kodokan win? No. Did Fusen-ryu win? Well, they did prevent most of the combatants of the Kodokan from imposing their tachi-waza therefore it was a loss by the Kodokan but not a win, necessarily, by the fusen-ryu. The combatants from Fusen played for the draw and caught the Kodokan with its shitagi down. While it has always been stated as a loss, it really was a draw, but more importantly, the idea of practical Newaza had begun to take shape. Certainly fusen played a role, but so did free style wrestling of the West."


    Well, misinterpreted win by Fusen-ryu, that is interesting. How come it was mininterpreted? I do think I have read Kodokan lost, which gave Jigoro Kano the idea that his judo should be more balanced and needed more or better newaza.

    Since to all accounts I am aware of the idea that Fusen-ryu specialized in newaza seems not correct. There is a big chance that Tanabe sensei of Fusen-ryu was a newaza expert but that is something different. It is quite possible Tanabe sensei contributed a lot to newaza of Kodokan judo but that is not the same as that Fusen-ryu contributed.

    I have always wondered if Fusen-ryu played such a heavy role in the formation of the curriculum of the Kodokan how come it is never credited for that. No English source ever claims any schools other than Tenjin Shinyo-ryu and Kito-ryu. This is from memory but I am pretty sure of it.

    About Brazilian jujutsu well I don't know much about it, what I do know is that the self-defence books I have seen show straight-old-fashioned jujutsu, not more nothing less. Practical enough I should add.

    Best Regards,

    Johan Smits

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    Default Kit and everybody

    Thanks for all your comments and inputs, i really appreciate them.
    It was a worthy lesson to read your comments and thoughts and helped a lot with my own theories about it.

    Maybe the evolution i´m trying to see is just to hidden or too obvious about the Ne waza.

    Kit said:
    I would also hesitate to say that there is nothing in classical jujutsu that resembles Judo/BJJ groundwork. Certainly the focus is different, but it will also be different between a Sengoku era battlefield JJ and an Edo period self-defense jujutsu. There is still a thread that runs through them. I can think of several techniques that I have learned that are found in BJJ. I have several times mentioned a technique from one style that involved a tomoe nage, followed by attempts at a collar choke, which the defender straight arms to defeat and gets hit with juji gatame. Kiraku-ryu has a throw followed by dropping into a juji gatame. The little Araki-ryu I did had several "last ditch" battlefield survival moves which were very similar to BJJ moves, done against a knife. Which is another reason I have often pointed out that when you take judo and BJJ, adapt them for the fact that you are wearing weapons or your adversary may be carrying a weapon, you often end up with stuff that looks very similar to classical JJ.

    I agree totally with you, specially about the part between the mindset and focus between Segoku Period Ju Jutsu and Edo..200% agree with you opinion.

    Thanks a lot guys.

    Sincerely,

    Óscar Recio

    PS: Kit i would really like to know your thoughts about how you felt the SYR practise with Threadgill sensei in relation with what we´ve been talking about here. I was a practitioner of different MA before SYR, one of them for nearly 10 years and i practised intensively Ne Waza for a looong time so.... Send me a Pm or something about it. I´ll be waiting.
    "Any man who refers to himself as a "master" or knowlingly allows his students to refer to him as a master, isn´t one"
    Takamura Yukiyoshi
    http://www.dojotanabe.com

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    Mark, thanks for your reply. I apologize for my ignorance-hence this is why I am here. My references for my information comes from two sources, one being a book by Kid Peligro "The Gracie Way" and two from this website:

    http://www.geocities.com/ibfaustralia/jujutsu.html It certainly was not my intention to insult anyone due to my mis-information!!!
    Mike Geery

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    It sounds like everyone is on the same page here (excuse the pun,) but I will throw in my 2 cents Canadian.

    Really it comes down to this, context of application and the fact that the body is not infinite.

    What everybody calls koryu did not develop the focus on ne-waza or grappling skills because the context of application dictated that it was not an effective application.

    Edo and Meji period we see a huge shift in the context of unarmed combatives and combative sports. As people begin to focus on any one aspect the technical merits get developed to a higher level.

    As to Sombo, it is a combination system, which pulls heavily from judo/jujutsu but also heavily from a variety of Central Asian wrestling types.

    It is a tricky thing becasue our desire to classify and come up with intelectual classifications and rules drives us. It is part of being human I would guess.

    But, at some level all combatives/combative sports/combative pastimes comes down to one ultimate goal, winning. (Yes even the guys who wear funny pants and relate a wrist lock in context to the cosmos at some level are driving towards victory.) If I am grappling my grappling skills will develop, if I am in a swordfighting culture the sword skills, if I am shooting, the gun skills, if I am arm-wrestling those skills. As a famous kid once said..."chicks dig guys with skills..." it is all about context.

    Koryu are no more real or dealdy etc than gendai and visa versa. It all depends on context. I know there are a number of folks out there who have a lot more historical information etc than I do and are much better spoken. But really what it boils down to is that everything is really fairly simple and of course more practice less talk.


    Regards,
    Aaron Fields
    Seattle Jujutsu Club, Hatake Dojo
    Sea-Town Sombo
    www.seattle-jujutsu.org

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    But Aaron, the talking is so much fun!
    Mike Geery

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    Aaron-

    I think that kid was specifically talking about bo-staff skills. Though I seem to remember something about "numb chucks."

    Mark-

    I'm gonna hafta go with Johan here and ask where you got your info about a "misinterpreted" win? As best the sources I've seen say, it was not once but twice that Kodokan members lost. I have also thought there was speculation as to whether it was just Tanabe or a group match.

    Are you sure you are not thinking of the 1886 matches when you mention the draws? If not, where are you getting these details?

    Raspado-

    I wouldn't use that link as a source for very much.

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